Insight Into Autism | JB Handley

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello everybody. Dr. Ben Edwards here. Welcome to another episode of youf're the Cure. We've got a repeat guest, one of my favorites, one of my most referenced podcasts that I personally send people to patients and physicians and nurse practitioners, healthcare providers, general public who call me or contact me. This book how to End the Autism Epidemic is well marked up. I was just looking back at it came out in 2018. I forget when our interview was but shortly thereafter is but pre covered. So y' all can go back on the website, go check out that interview. Today's focus. I wanted to bring JB back on to talk about more a personal perspective of his son Jamie, who may come in and out of the background. JB just shared with me, but Jamie and his journey and actually a book that Jamie, JB's son with autism, co authored and the book's name is and someone borrowed it. That's why I don't have it to show you But Underestimated An Autism Miracle. You know, it's been so controversial lately with of course the measles outbreak and the vaccine topic and Senator Kennedy coming out with his press conference a little while ago talking about autism and we're going to get to the root of it, what's causing it and that'll be going to release that in September. And I mean this is just such an emotional and hot topic and so controversial and very, very on both sides of this argument. It gets so heated. And I thought we need to not only tone it down some and not not not look at the truth, but let's bring the humanity back to this and especially the kids. I mean the kids are affected by this process, this inflammation in the brain. And I do want to say real quick to mainly to practitioners there's I think it's 11. I just went and counted 11 different studies that JB quotes in this original book how to End the Autism Epidemic on basically how does aluminum and other things from a muscle injected through a needle get to the brain and cause any kind of neuro inflammation or disruption of neurologic function? And these scientists have been working on this and laid it out so beautifully in the book. But, but the quote, I don't have it in front of me, but it takes 17 years for a medical doctor to change his mind and change the way he practices in the establishment in general. 17 years. Well that's a whole lot of kids and a whole lot of families that get affected in that time. So I want to put the spotlight on this miracle story that JB and Jamie talked about in the book and let him share from his heart that journey. So, jb, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming back on with us today. [00:02:54] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm, I'm thrilled to be here. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Ben. [00:02:56] Speaker B: I really appreciate you taking the time and allowing me to have the opportunity to address your viewership and, and your platform. So thank you. [00:03:06] Speaker A: You're welcome. [00:03:06] Speaker B: You know, I told you I wasn't gonna like, riff off topic, but I, I do. I just want to start with something really simple for people. Really simple. Because it drives me crazy how complicated and controversial this topic has become for so many. I want to remind people that it was controversial to say that cigarettes caused lung cancer even though you're sitting there watching somebody inhale acrid smoke into their lungs. Right. [00:03:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Most of us today find that to be a relatively self evident correlation. But you don't realize that for 40 years it was fought tooth and nail and many people didn't believe there was any problem. Right. So let's, let's remember that. And then I'm just going to appeal to the logical people who are watching this show. It's three really simple points that I want to make and then we can talk about the humanity. And I'm really looking forward to that. But because, because the controversy has kind of re. Erupted with Bobby's press conference. Three things. Number one, there is massively more autism in the world than there used to be. And I was born in 1969. I'm 55 years old. I was a military brat. So I actually lived overseas quite a bit of my childhood. But I was in fifth and sixth grade, I was in Northern Virginia. And in my junior year I was in Northern Virginia. And going back to my elementary school in fifth and sixth grade in Reston, Virginia, that was relatively large. There wasn't one kid who looked like my son. And the first kid that I met with autism was my son. Anybody who doesn't think that the numbers are up massively is being lied to or has forgotten their own history. Okay, so the first thing that we know, and by the way, in my book, as you know, I meticulously go through all the studies, many of which Bobby cited. By the way, Bobby utilized my book to. It was just an efficient way for him to grab all the science in the area of, you know, the number of people with autism. So the number's up massively. And there has to be an explanation for that. There just. There simply has to be an explanation. And it's often the simplest, the most obvious and simple explanation you know, so why are all these people getting lung cancer? Oh, they all happen to be smokers. Oh, what do you know? Right? [00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Vaccines are the most biologically plausible reason. They just are. In fact, here's the really simple explanation for what causes autism. It's immune activation events in the brains of developing babies. That's what causes it. Okay? Now how does the immune activation event happen? Think of it as a flare up. A flare up of the immune system in the brain. Right. Has its own immune system up there. You know this stuff way better than I do. Well, go into chat GPT and ask, ask AI if a vaccine can cause an immune activation event. You know what it's going to tell you. That's what it's designed to do. It's kind of like the Wuhan virology lab. Like did it really take us that long to connect the dots? It's a wonderful Jon Stewart comedy where he goes through this, right? And I'm more right than left. He's more left than right. But we're both logic based, you know. So my second point is it is by far the most biologically plausible and obvious explanation. It's not the only one. And I've met unvaccinated kids with autism. But if, if you accept, which I do as fact, that you have to have an immune activation event to cause autism, then vaccines are the no brainer obvious trigger. And by the way, the number of them in total volume has gone up dramatically. We all know that. What we forget to mention is that the immunization rate has also gone up dramatically. Not only did you have way more vaccines when I was a kid in the 80s, but the immunization rates were in the 50 and 60% range for each of the vaccines. This is all fact. So you combine those two, it's even more, it's more of a exponential punch or a geometric punch than just an additive punch. Right? The third thing, and then I'll get off my soapbox here. I run in the community of parents of children with profound autism, depending on your numbers and they're not solid enough for me, it's somewhere between 25 and 40% of the population of children who have autism. And if, you know, if the US has 340 million people and 3% have autism, that's roughly 10 million people. So 25 to 40% have profound autism. Right? That's two and a half to 4 million people that we're talking about here. These are human beings who can't talk and who need lifetime care. If you Talk to their parents. 70 to 80% my opinion. Blame the vaccines. That's got to count for something. So wasn't around when I was a kid. It's the most biologically obvious explanation of immune activation events, and most of the parents who lived it cite the vaccine appointments. Those are my big three. My big three arguments for why this shouldn't be so controversial. And, you know, sorry to be loud about something that's obvious. You know, I kind of view the origins of COVID as like a compartmentalized version of this, where the first people who said, kind of seems like it could have come from the Wuhan lab, where they were like, messing with coronaviruses and like, oh, you're a horrible human. Right. We're on a longer path through that ridiculous process. But for God's sakes, people. So you've got the one group who. They just want to deny that there's more of those kids. They don't have any credibility with me. That's just an abject lie. I lived that time, and I've read all the science and talked about it. So you're just lying then? You want to tell me it's not the vaccines, which are by far the most biologically plausible explanation for causing immune activation events? Okay, show me the science. You know as well as I do, most people don't. It hasn't been done. So we're at square one. And then you go to all the parents, and most of them say, yeah, they were pretty good. And then each vaccine appointment, they got worse, or on one, they went to the hospital, or on one, they, you know, whatever it is, the stories are all over the map. And some of them are absolutely horrifying, as you well know. That doesn't seem that hard to me. [00:10:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very, very logical. I think those are three. Three good points for people to consider. And if you're logic based, it. It makes sense. [00:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah, you have a very hard time arguing with me. You know, I went to Stanford. A lot of my fraternity brothers are doctors and, and they're guys that I love and know really well. And they, they respect me and they know I'm not crazy. And I've gotten all of them to concede that I'm probably right. They just listen to the facts rather than, you know, what they're seeing in the press. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I've found in my own experience and talking to colleagues. I mean, my own personal journey down this road, too, of discovery is once you actually start learning and reading and those, those 11 studies in your book. It's pretty clear that this. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Yeah. By the way, you're just talking about the studies because there's way more than 11 cited in that book. You're just talking about the studies that walk you through how man made aluminum gets injected and the macrophage grabs it and it takes it to the brain and it gets stuck and creates permanent flare ups of, you know, immune activation events in the brains of babies. That persists, unfortunately. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And when I read those and others, but yeah, those specifically for how does this happen? How does it get from this muscle to the brain? It's just real logical and science space. So. [00:11:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And by the way, some of the, some of the scientists who I cite in that particular chapter that you're speaking about that explains the biological mechanisms. Several of those scientists have read my book, read that chapter and given me the seal of approval. Like. Yeah, that's pretty much what we think. So like we have these brilliant scientists who know this stuff cold who are kind of sitting out there. I just pray to God that the NIH calls and gives them grants and helps them do, you know, allows them to do more work. We, we know, we know what's happening. We really do. [00:12:01] Speaker A: Yep. [00:12:01] Speaker B: So. [00:12:02] Speaker A: Well and kind of what gets me a lot of things kind of get me a little bit perturbed. But one of the quotes, I forget which chapter, but it's Dr. Kelly. No, Dr. Richard Kelly I believe, but he basically said yes, in this particular case, I believe the vaccines cause autism because of the mitochondrial dysfunction in Yates. The 11 month old. I quote that all the time. And so just even that right there, that we should so far past the question of if can it and does it like that's, that should have been years ago because there's so much more we need to discover and look into and research to help. And that's what we're going to talk. The majority about today is there's, we thought these kids were cognitively just not there and therefore we're talking to them like they're, they're dumb two year olds. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:50] Speaker A: Whoa. They're brilliant. We're going to get into that. [00:12:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:54] Speaker A: And I want you to just go right there if you want to. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'd love to. I'd love to. I mean, you know, people who may not know me, you know, they'll, they'll like see that clip from the doctors and maybe they think that I spend my day like fighting with the outside world, but I don't. I spend my days with my son. I probably spend five to seven hours of my day with Jamie. He's 22 years old. He's definitely my best friend. We right after this interview, we're going to put our ruck packs on and go for our daily hike. We do a 90 minute hike every day. I carry 40 pounds, Jamie carries 25, you know, and we rip it up. We tandem bike most days together. We, my, my wife does Excellus with him, which is his high school. I do that with him as well. And the most important thing in my life is that Jamie has a life filled with joy. Yeah, that's really my singular priority. I would get rid of everything else. I have two other wonderful children who are neurotypical. One is 18 and one is 25. They're equally important to me, of course. I'm a very proud parent of three great kids, happily married. And Jamie having joy in his life is the only thing that matters to me. I'm blessed with a great family. I'm blessed with a large and loyal group of friends who I know and love deeply and vice versa, both from high school and college, really. And when I go out, the only thing that matters to me is that Jamie has lived joyfully and will continue to do so. And I use that as my guiding light for kind of everything that I spend my time on and the exposure to spelling and not just spelling. And for those who don't know that non speakers can learn how with the, with a letter board to spell out words and then they move to a, you know, a keyboard and beyond. Spelling has had a more profound impact on me, most importantly on my son and my whole family than anything else that's ever happened to us. And I, I approached it very skeptically when I first heard that this was really happening. You know, it. So there's been rumors about spelling and then there's been a few videos over the years, like I'm not the innovator here at all. But it was kind of in it. Like I'm kind of in the biomed community of autism parents, right, who think that there's cause and you can do nutrition to fix it and everything else. And so I'd say we viewed therapy skeptically in general. But then I'd seen some videos about the spelling therapy and it just looked really complicated and I wasn't sure the kid was doing it. I just was kind of like, I don't know. And it took a, it took a biomed mom who'd had a great experience and it's in the book. She called me and Told me that's all very true for me to open my mind to the possibility of this truth. And the most intense part of it, the craziest part of it, is that the fundamental belief before you can get started in spelling is to accept that these children are intellectually present and available to you, that they are at or above your and my intellect. Right. That they are capable, that they understand everything that's going on in their world. And as much as Jamie was my best friend and I spent a ton of time with him before spelling, I didn't believe that. [00:16:40] Speaker A: Well, and maybe let's start there. And I want to even go way back for those who didn't hear the first interview, guys, I do encourage you to go listen that. But set that stage up well, even back to the day he was born and just the joy and the expectation of this life with your son and, and then, I mean, we gotta keep it maybe a little short version of it, but kind of what happened and mentally for you and your wife where that. And emotionally where that sent you and the expectation, maybe what doctors told you or what the Internet told you of what you would expect from Jamie for the rest of his life. So kind of set that stage before the spelling. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you don't know unless you live in. And you know, we already had an older son who was neurotypical. So when Jamie was born, we were joyful, right? Two dudes, everything that goes along with that, you know, the beautiful imagery of brothers and everything else. And it took our nanny when Jamie was about nine months old, saying to us, I, I don't think something's wrong, you know, and you know, you don't want to hear that. You don't want to hear that. He was starting to perseverate and do funny things and he was always sick and, you know, eczema and, you know, he developed eczema and stopped being able to sleep right after his two month appointment, you know, and we, we didn't really, we didn't really see cause and effect. All the dates lined up when we went back and looked like, why? When did that happen? Oh, it was like the day after the appointment. You know, like we kind of pieced it all together and, and by before Jamie was 2, he was diagnosed with full blown autism or severe autism or whatever it is. And it was absolutely devastating, man. It was absolutely devastating. It was the hardest time in my life. I had to. When he got diagnosed, I was running a company that I'd founded, you know, very intense job. I had to Call my parents and have them fly in from Virginia and live with us for a month just to keep me, like to help get me off the floor. Right. I mean, I was so devastated. And there, there's our older son. Can't even imagine what that was like for him. He was very young at the time, but to see his parents, I mean, dude, I was in the fetal position crying every night. I mean it was, it was absolutely, absolutely devastating and very, very difficult. And while we had a lot of hope because of Biomed and trying things and you know, I kind of spent 15 years thinking Jamie was going to recover, you know, and that's, that's a lot of hope to expend in the world and not get payback for. You know, it's a lot of hope, a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of praying, a lot of everything to sort of wet down. [00:19:20] Speaker A: Got you even to that point, as opposed to just, well, autism and you know, do the standard. Yeah, standard answer is what got you looking outside the box even on these nutritional or detox. [00:19:33] Speaker B: You know, I probably give my wife credit. He got diagnosed at, at a very fancy old school autism place at ucsf. Right. We were living in the Bay Area and the woman who diagnosed him is like world renowned, you know, quote unquote autism expert. And you know, she told my wife that Jamie was going to have to be institutionalized someday and prepare yourself for that. And my wife wasn't having that, just wasn't having that. Her gut instincts told her something different. And so it just caused us to immediately research. Thank God there were like Yahoo Communication groups back then. Like, you know what I mean, It's a whole different world, right? This is. Jamie was born in 02, so this is like 03.04. There's no cell phones in our hands, there is an Internet and it's discussion groups. And we started to find these things and parents sharing ideas and before long, you know, thank God Bernie Rimlan was out there. We just discovered that stuff and went to a DAN conference and just tried to figure it all out. And that world seemed to be offering a lot more hope than, than the mainstream. And even though my wife and I were both very, very mainstream by background, you know, and had trusted a pediatrician, mainstream pediatrician. Oh yeah, do the shots, the whole thing, it just, I think we're both, we're both skeptics, you know, we're both independent thinkers and it just kind of appealed to us. So, so we, we chased Biomed and I, I think it's had a huge impact on Jamie's regulation, you know, which is kind of a word for like how much you stim and you know, how hard it is for you to transfer in between things and how much you, you know, act out and that kind of thing. And Jamie's extremely calm and I think like Biomed had a huge impact on him. But what I've learned is for the kids who are non speakers, I don't know any kids who are non speakers where the Biomed allowed them to speak. Again, I think that, I think that the damage that's done is being done in some way in the motor cortex of the brain. And if that gets shot, speech is such a complex motor organization challenge that biomed alone isn't going to bring that back. Has been my general experience. So it was an excruciating journey. As he got into his teens, it sort of became even more painfully poignant because he's starting to look like a man, but on the, you know, he's not functioning like one, you know, and his, his, his brother is like an elite athlete. Like, he's a professional lacrosse player. You know, this kid with the same gene pool is not. And it just, it was just getting darker and more challenging. His little sister came along and it was very hard for her. Have this big, big guy who did have outbursts and didn't talk and kind of embarrassed her, you know, with her friends. And like, you know, I mean, the, the trauma on the siblings is like the never talked about part of this whole thing. And you know, like, we did our best, right? But like, of course my kids are carrying, you know, scars and challenges. My other two from, from Jamie. And you know, we, we're a family who insists on doing everything together. Family vac. We never would isolate Jamie or let him not be a part of things. That has its own set of, you know, so like, we're on the plane to Hawaii, you know, and Jamie's flipping out and like those experiences happen. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:22:43] Speaker B: And we prefer that to any other. Like, Jamie's always been integrated in our family, but you know, my other two kids, there's probably been times where they're like, yeah, I could afford a trip without, you know, some of this drama. But that was never going to happen in our case, just the way we felt about, about our family. So as he was hitting his teens, I was, I was finding more and more reasons to feel dark about the future, quite frankly. Quite frankly. And that's tough, man. That's tough. I mean, for any parent, for any parent you can appreciate. I mean we're kind of as happy as our least happy kid, you know, and, and this was, this was a very dark time for us. And he was, he was in a non speaking autism school where this is Jamie right now saying hello to me as he walks by. You can go, buddy. It's okay. He likes to listen sometime on my podcast. He was in an autism school and he was really starting to act out more at school and it was interesting he would act out, which basically means he would throw some kind of fit where either self injury, usually not others, but and just really loud and aggressive. And we kind of had a rule with the school that if he had one of these incidents, I would come and pick him up. Right. Well, every time I came and picked him up then he was totally fine, like perfectly fine. You know, I come to find out later there were triggers. They would say really rude things to him, they would be dismissive of him. They would treat him like he was stupid. That was his way of being pissed off. He didn't want to be there. They were hurting his feelings and making him feel marginalized and he wasn't happy about that and he couldn't tell anybody. So the darkness was starting to overtake my life in terms of Jamie's prospects for the future. And you know, I've probably become a lot more religious in the last five or six years. I didn't really grow up with a lot of religion, but I don't really know what else to attribute all this to because I used to kind of get pissed at God. Like I'm really trying. I'm raising the flag, I'm putting myself out in public writing books. Right. You know, can you throw me a bone? You know what I mean? Can I get a little break? You know what I want? I just want my boy. Like, can you help me? And I just didn't feel like like God and I were communing, you know what I mean? [00:24:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:56] Speaker B: Maybe he wasn't seen, you know how it is. [00:24:58] Speaker A: And Yep. [00:25:00] Speaker B: And then, you know, and then this woman, mother, Honey Renicella, who's a well known biomed mom and leader and activist, she calls me because she'd had this amazing experience with spelling with her son Vince. And Honey was one of my people. Right. And. And the more she took me through it and the more she shared what Vince was saying and all the things he was spelling, I was still like, well, that's so awesome that it's worked for Vince and I believe that it. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Has and share real Quick, specifically how did she notify you of that? Didn't she screenshot some sentences that he actually typed out? [00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah she did. So I like, I was at like my daughter's basketball practice with and like we're like in that deep text exchange where I'm still skeptical but she's like, jb, I just really think. And then she starts sending me screenshots of things Vince has written and I'm like, please confirm. Was this written by your son, the non speaker? You know, because I don't believe it. And then, and then I don't know why I did this, but I get home same night and I video Jamie, right? Just Jamie kind of hanging out. I'm like, this is my son honey. And she's like, he can do it. And I don't know, it was coming up on Christmas time and I was feeling some darkness and then I discovered that the, the place that is sort of the epicenter of where spelling to communicate was invented is 10 minutes from my parents house. [00:26:36] Speaker C: Are you ready to take control of your health together? You're not alone. Dr. Ben, as well as a mission driven team here at Veritas, created this online wellness membership. Because so many are suffering. We want to help more people by sharing the truth that we believe will change lives. Veritas Wellness Membership is more than just a wellness program. It's a movement designed to empower you with truth, practical tools and a support community at a price that's accessible for everyone. One membership covering your entire household. Upon signing up, you gain access to life changing educational resources, expert led webinars, live movement classes and exercise series, community groups and wellness initiatives, interactive classes as well as exclusive discounts on supplements and advanced lab testing. We also offer complimentary unlimited peace consults. A space for you to go deeper, discover who you were created to be and explore how stress contributes to disease. We believe in getting to the root cause and understanding why what we believe truly matters. Our team of wellness navigators are here to guide you every step of the way. So whether you're just starting your wellness journey or ready to go deeper, there's something here for you. So jump in today. We can't wait to walk this journey with you. Visit veritas wellnessmember.com to get started. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Right. I'm living in Portland, Oregon, but it's in Herndon, Virginia. I mentioned Reston earlier. My parents still live there. It's 10 minutes from my folks house. I call the next morning, I book an appointment, I call my mom and dad who are still alive. God bless. And I'm like, guess what? I'm coming out with Jamie. We'll be there in a week. They have no idea what's going on. You know, and, and I think you know that walking into the spelling center in Herndon, which is called the Growing Kids Therapy center, they treat the non speakers like people. And I'd never seen somebody do this before. So, like, I walk in and the woman who's like the receptionist, hi, Jamie. So great to have you here. We can't wait to get started. Like, like she has like a five minute conversation with him as if I don't exist. And I'm like, wow, I've never seen anybody treat my son that way before. And this is that beautiful, beautiful thing that they call presumption of competence, which I've now fully embraced. And I genuinely believe to the bottom of my soul that every non speaker with autism understands not only 100% of what's going on in the world, but is actually brilliant and, and fully capable. And they, they taught me that. They showed me that. And what was as interesting is just bearing witness to something I'd never seen an adult do with my son before, like treat him like a normal person, was the way it affected Jamie. Because I can read Jamie's body language at an intuitive level, right. After 22 years of being with him every day, like, I can tell you in one second how his mood is and how he's doing and to see the confidence that that gave him and how he gravitated towards those people, I was like that. [00:30:12] Speaker C: I was. [00:30:13] Speaker B: That was my first clue. I was like, wow, he's. He's like, listening closely and he's smiling and he's feeling. He's showing. He's got body confidence and he's really calm and he's really into it. And then, you know, we sit down in the spelling room for the first time and there's pieces of this in the movie that you just watched in the movie Spellers, right? It's. It's Elizabeth Vossler who's sitting with him, and, and she's like, you know, I forget the words exactly. But, like, I know you can do this. Right? And I, I remember I'm not a big crier. You mentioned you're not a huge crier. I mean, when she said that, I mean, I just, like, instantly, like, tears were just, like firing out of my eyes. Right? Like, like, what is this woman saying to my son? And the way that he responded to her was like my first clue that this might not all Be a big joke that there might actually be something going on here because he was. He will accept people into his life and treat them. He's very loving, as all kids with autism are, but it takes him a while. Right. He's got to build trust. That first meeting with Elizabeth, he was all over her in a loving way. You only do that when like, that person's making you feel really, really good about yourself and about life. So just that that change in frame of reference to presumed competence is arguably the most important change that we went through as a family. And the impact on Jamie has been huge. Right. Like, I thought I talked to Jamie before in the right way, but I realized that I really treated him like he was five in the way I spoke to him. And now I speak to him the same way that I'm speaking to you right now. Right. And I'll go on rifts with him all the time to teach him stuff about the world or tell him about stuff without ever, you know, without any doubt anymore. And like, just for him to be treated that way by everybody who's in his life now has been, as you can imagine, right. You're sitting there, you, for the life of you, you don't know how to tell people that there's way more going on than they think. You can't write because you're. You're motor impaired. You can't speak. Right. You're running out of options for how to let people know what's going on. And they're demeaning you, they're talking down to you. All you've got left is kind of like stomping and, you know, like whatever it is. [00:32:32] Speaker A: That's what impacted me the most, I think in the book is when he started typing out and telling you and your wife and, and others. Remember that time, dad, in school when this thing happened, or you said this or you did that. Here's what I. What was really happening. Here's how that made me feel it. He remembered this whole thing. He was there. The cognitive. [00:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Every. Every moment, it's. It's even surreal for me, even though I lived it, to go back and, and imagine all those things. And I think that every parent who gets into spelling goes through the guilt phase, the regret phase, the wanting to right wrong phase. And I understand all of those feelings. They're very natural and normal. What's, what's true with these amazing speller. I just call them spellers for the. Just think it's a. Easier. It's like a clean term and it's forward looking. And these spellers are the most forgiving, kind, open hearted people you will ever meet. I've never met one who was holding a grudge for treatment, you know, and with, with Jamie, I guess I'm proud that I didn't have like any like super regretful moments, but I just had sort of a look, I didn't, I didn't treat you like you were as smart as you are. And I, you know, I've apologized to him many different ways, many different times. He understands. He knows I was doing my best. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. We'll go back to that moment at the spelling center beyond. They were talking to Jamie and treating him like a. A person, a regular person who was cognitively right there. So you're sitting there watching them, you know, go through that a little bit of he's spelling something out. I mean, that had to just shock you. [00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah, dude. I mean, so I'm in the back of the room. It's just, it's just me. My mom and dad aren't with me. They're in town. But I just came by myself. So it's just me and Jamie and Elizabeth Vossler, who deserves so much credit for, for opening this whole thing up. You know, I didn't know he could spell. And she started having him just learn how to do the method poke letters. I was even impressed with that. And then right at the end, she asked him what the antonym of herbivore is. So, so they read these lessons. They're like two or three page lessons that are based on a topic. You can find these anywhere. Now these spelling lessons, they use them as a way to practice spelling. So they'll be, they'll be reading about the Roman Empire, right? And then they'll be like, you know, spell Julius Caesar or whatever, you know, like, so they integrate. So that's how they teach spelling. And so she was giving, she was doing a lesson on plants with Jamie. And they have all these different nomenclature for the methodology. So they'll say, oh, he spelled a known word. Well, that means it was in the lesson, it was spelled out to him and he was just asked to repeat it. Right? And then there's higher levels right within the lessons and they have them color coded. As you get more and more sophisticated as a speller. So the most sophisticated speller, they'll ask them what they call an open ended question or an open question that just requires any kind of answer. Right. It's not a road answer. It's like, hey, what do you think about the Roman Empire? Right. That kind of a thing. So she asked him a question that wasn't in the lesson. It was, what's the antonym of herbivore? And he spelled carnivore. And I'm like, carnivore wasn't in that lesson. Right. And. And I just remember texting my wife, like, through the tears, like, he just bleeping, spelled carnivore, but it wasn't in the bleeping lesson. There's something here. There is something here. Like, I. I came in skeptical, open, but skeptical. Honey. Made me be open. But I still doubted Jamie could pull it off. Right? That was like. That took us to the other side, and then I just have to jump ahead a little bit because it was so magical. My father is a very important person in my life. I'm very close with my dad. I talk to him just about every day. He's 85, but he's amazing, dude. And he always had my back. And just a great father, you know, just. He said a great. He set a great example for me in a lot of ways as a dad. And my kids feel the same way. Right. He always has their back, and he'll show up for anything if you ask him to. So after Elizabeth really kicked us off back in Virginia, my wife and I. My wife Lisa and I went away and practiced for six weeks, just everything Elizabeth had told us to do. The one thing we can do, we will get after it, right? We will put in the time. So we get after it, and we go to Hawaii. We practice when we're there over Christmas break, et cetera. And then we find. We find a spelling teacher who just happens to be way closer to home for us because we're on the West Coast. Her name's Dawn Marie, and she's down in San Diego. And as you know, she's in the movie. And we get to her, and, like, by the end of this, we go for, like, two weeks. And by. By the end of the first week, I call my dad, and I'm like, you need to come out here. You need. You need to bear witness to what's happening right now. Now. So he does. He gets on a plane from Virginia, comes to San Diego to hang out with me and Jamie. And Jamie's getting better and better at spelling. He still hasn't. There's this moment that every parent has when your kid becomes open that no one will ever forget. Right? It's like your kid walking, but probably better, honestly. And my dad's sitting in the room with me, shoulder to shoulder. When Jamie breaks open and he breaks open on. I can't remember the words exactly anymore. They're in the book. But Don Marie's from Boston, and. And she's an insufferable Red Sox fan. And my family's from New York, and I'm an insufferable Yankee fan. So that's always been a rift between us. And she put Jamie through this horrible story on the Red Sox when they were down three one of the Yankees, and they came back and ended up going on to win the World Series. Right. And. And she basically asked him a question of, you know, kind of what he thought of this whole story. And like, so his first open answer was basically, God. I can't. I can't remember the exact words right now, but it basically was, you know, we Handleys are Yankee fans. And my father is sitting there. And I am sitting there. My dad from Scarsdale, New York, originally. That's where my dad's from. And we're both weeping like babies. Weeping like babies at what we just bore witness to. It was, you know, probably the most. Next to my children being born or marrying my wife, like the most beautiful moment that I've ever personally borne witness to. And the load that came off my shoulders that day for Jamie's outcome and the. All the implications of what I had just witnessed. I've never let go of that since that day. It was absolutely magical. And everything since that day has been unicorns and rainbows by comparison to life before. I am not exaggerating in every single night when I go to bed. And probably half the time I sleep with Jamie, half the time I put him to bed, depending on the situation. Every single night, I thank God. That's where my relationship with God has gone. I thank him every night. I even get a little teary talking about it to you now because it means so much to me. And I thank him. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:25] Speaker B: I just thank him for the blessing of what we have with Jamie. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:28] Speaker B: For bringing spelling into his life, for allowing him to have joy, have friends, have goals, have ambitions. I mean, you just. Only other parents really understand what I'm talking about right now. But, you guys, he's. He's going to graduate high school within the next four weeks with his little sister. We're having a co. Graduation party. Right. He already took a college class to practice in the fall. He's going to go to college. He has a group of buddies. He zooms with them and talks to them. He meets with them. He loves them. He thinks about them. He has Ambitions for his life. He'd like to be married one day. Wow. I mean, I don't know how we're going to figure all these things out, man, but it beats the alternative by a country mile. And most importantly, we were. We were about to go down the path of guardianship and all that kind of stuff that you have to do with a disabled adult. [00:41:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:35] Speaker B: And we stopped because Jamie has agency. I'm not about to override his will as, as a human being. So we don't have a guardianship with him at all. It's. He's, he's in control of his life and his decisions, and that's just the way we like it. And so the change to my mental health, my wife's mental health, my outlook on the future, it's indescribable. And whatever I have doesn't even compare to Jamie. Right. Like, I have a good life. You know, I already told you, I got friends and great wife and I'm 55 and, man, I've lived, I've had a great life. I have no complaints. But for him, what it's done for his life, you can't even. It's. It's unimaginable how much better it is now. And every day I know confidently that Jamie's going to tell me what he wants to do. [00:42:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:40] Speaker B: That's all you want, right, for your children? Yeah. So it's, it's been, it's been magical and beautiful and everything people think it isn't. Like, all I can tell you is that book that we wrote in that movie that we made, like, that's just the truth. Yeah, that's just the truth. You know, so. And by the way, can I just say I'm sorry to riff on this a little bit? There are still doubters out there, Ben. Yeah, there is actually controversy. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Well, on this topic, I do want to talk about that because that's come up. Well, first I want to say, how long ago was this? How long has Jamie been spelling? [00:43:18] Speaker B: He's been a fluid Speller since early 2020. Okay, so almost five years or five years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It happened right before lockdown. [00:43:28] Speaker A: Wow. [00:43:29] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's been, it's been five years now. [00:43:31] Speaker A: So describe kind of in just the autism community, because obviously you were deep in that and the biomed and trying to help Jamie and exploring and going to conferences and all this. And then honey drops his bomb on you. You go with it. Has this exploded in that community in these last four and a half years or more and more what percentage of these profoundly autistic non speakers? Is it just on fire and everyone's in agreement going forward or is there something. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So it's absolutely exploded. I, I have to be honest, so many parents reach out to me when their kids become open because they want to thank me. And Jamie, you know, it was probably the book or the movie that gave him the push. I kind of have to pretend to be like shocked and excited again. Like I've heard the story so many times. Like, I really do think the hit rate is like 100 if you dedicate yourself to it. So if you're listening to this and you have a non speaker with autism and you're wondering if it will work for them, the answer is yes. [00:44:38] Speaker A: So. [00:44:41] Speaker B: I mean, I, I, you know, I'm pretty close with Don Marie. I mean, like her practice has exploded, to put it Mildly. She was one woman in a little office. Now she's in a 40,000 square foot building. Wow. [00:44:57] Speaker A: So where's, where's the skepticism Pushback. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:01] Speaker A: Or school. Are schools in alignment with this? Kind of give the whole. [00:45:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, autism parents who are listening will understand this. Even within the autism community. You maybe have like, like the neurodiverse parents and the biomed parents and they don't always get along. Their kids often go to the same schools, but they see the world a little differently. And the neurodiverse parents were kind of ahead of the curve on spelling. And I like to think that I kind of opened the door along with honey for all the biomed parents to run through. So like many of my close friends who have been activists, now all their kids spell and they're all open because most of we activists do have non speakers and we relate to the spelling game. But like we've caught up now. So it's awesome because at first I had a hard time convincing people, Right. To give this a try. But now, five years in, I mean, I would say like 50 of my closest friends in the autism community have all brought their kids to spelling and it's worked for all of them and they all have way better lives, lives now, way more enriched lives. The skepticism unfortunately comes from, I would say three areas like this, this band of idiotic women who run around and try to demean what we're doing. Some of whom are like professors at like high ranking institutions. The entire ABA crowd and the entire speech Language pathology crowd. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Explain what those crowds are for listeners who don't know. [00:46:26] Speaker B: So aba. ABA is the most common form of behavioral therapy that Children with autism receive. Some people say that it's been really helpful for their kids and others say that it's like demeaning dog training. I happen to be in the secondary camp. I try not to badmouth it too much because I know that there's been parents who've had some form of ABA therapy. If you watch seems pretty mean. It looks like dog training. [00:46:56] Speaker A: Modify the behavior, get the outbursts to tone down. Try to do. [00:47:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Sit in that chair. You know, like, I don't know if you Google, if you just Google ABA therapy to watch a session. I find it very hard to watch. So I'm, I don't want to talk bad about it because I'm not an expert on it. It didn't work for Jamie. He didn't like it. Those people. So I, I use that term with you earlier. Presumption of competence. So those people presume incompetence. It's the fundamental building block of aba. So what we're doing runs completely polar opposite to that. And as you can imagine, there's been a lot of resistance. So somebody who, who is a practitioner of ABA is, Has a designation, an accreditation known as bcba. They've gone and earned that right. They. They've gone to school and I'm a bcba. You're employable as an ABA therapist and you've received a certain amount of training. Right. So there's a whole. So the, the autism school that Jamie was going to was about 60 BCBAs. As the faculty, they refused to bear witness to Jamie spilling. [00:48:02] Speaker A: Wow. [00:48:03] Speaker B: Not, oh, I'm not going to teach that. But I'm curious and I'd like to see what you're talking about. Oh, J.B. i'm sorry, I'm not going to be in the room when he's spelling. I can't. It could risk my accreditation. The speech language pathologist at Jamie's school here in Portland was the same way. He wouldn't bear witness. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Because it would threaten their license and therefore their job. [00:48:29] Speaker B: It wouldn't threaten their job because they were employed at an autism school that. Where the owner of the autism school was embracing spelling. But she couldn't get 60% of her faculty to even acknowledge what Jamie was doing. We were able to. There was one teacher at his autism school who was not a bcba, who was open minded. And she allowed Jamie to come into a classroom and use his letterboard to communicate with a bunch of other kids who spoke. But the problem was the teachers in the hallways were so hostile to what was happening with Jamie. And he can pick up on all that vibe. And when the idea was floated that Jamie could use the letterboard freely between classrooms, 60% of the school threatened to resign. [00:49:16] Speaker A: Oh, my word. [00:49:18] Speaker B: That's how bad it is. And it remains that bad. It remains that bad. And you saw the movie. Yeah. And we purposefully arced Jamie's spelling over time. So if you think about it, you saw me holding a laminate early on, right? Yep. By the end, what did you see? You saw Jamie sitting in a chair with a mounted board. [00:49:42] Speaker A: Yep. [00:49:43] Speaker B: Okay. Nobody's touching anything, by the way. Today he types on a normal keyboard like you and me. That's old footage. Like, I'm well past that. And the American Speech Language Pathology association says that a mounted board, when someone communicates off a mounted device, that's reliable communication. It's sort of been deemed reliable. Right. All the noise is because things are held by others. Right. And so there's some kind of ventriloquism going on here. We're just not sure what. So he's now on a mounted board. So he's meeting the standard that every mainstream speech language hearing group says is appropriate communication. And my whole argument to these idiots is he needed the board held to get to this point. He can tell you that. Do you not understand the notion of a training wheel? Right. That it's. It's a step in the process. Instead, you're overly fixated on the held board because you don't want to believe this. And they don't have as. They're not sure. They're not sure. It's kind of funny, Ben. You like this. They're like.