Kingdom VS. Empire | Jamie Winship

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Dr. Ben Edwards. Another episode of youf're the Cure got Jamie Winship back for part three. If you didn't hear the first two parts and go back on the website veritas wellnessmember.com and find them or on all the podcast platforms, go find those. Jamie's been so instrumental in my growth and maturing. You know, I'm still on my journey, guys. We all are. Jamie is, too. He would tell you, I'm sure, but we're all on this journey and there's such a temptation to get into camps. I'm right and you're wrong. And, you know, the past many weeks, walking through this measles thing, it's been a challenge for me. And it's a challenge, I think, for all physicians who are trained to be right. And honestly, our culture in general, Everybody's trained. You got to give the right answer on the spelling test in first grade to get your star and get your all A. But doctors in particular, we've made all A's our whole life. We made the National Junior Honor Society in junior high. We did all the extracurricular stuff. We were student body class president and in the National Honor Society. And, you know, do good on your PSAT so you can get a National Merit Scholarship and do good on your SAT and ACT so you can get in the best schools and give the right answers all the way through. And follow the rules, too, for sure. Follow the rules, obey authority, don't. Don't think outside the box. And you got to give the right answer all the way through college to get into med school. And then, of course in med school, you've got to give the right answers to be number one, to get into the best residency and then you got to be chief resident. And then you got to get the best job you can get with the highest income. You can get to pay off all the debt from the 10 years of education. And then you're in a system that requires you to give the right answer for to so many people. You've got to give the right answer so the insurance company and Medicare Medicaid will pay you for your time. You've got to give the right answer so the medical board will say you're doing standard of care and not threaten your license. You've got to give the right answer because a patient's life is on the line and if you get it wrong, they could die. You've got to give the right answer to prevent lawsuits from happening. You got to Give the right answer so your peers will respect you and help and not reject you. I mean it is just 360 degrees any way you turn. And the moment you start thinking about something outside that box and those narrow paths, fear. Fear will just put you right back in line. Mostly fear of what people will think of me. Fear of lack of provision if I lose my hospital privileges, if I lose my board certification. I won't, I'm not. I can't apply for insurance plans or if I just lose my job flat out, what in the world am I going to do? I've got a mortgage to pay. I got kids to put through the fear will just. Or fear being labeled label like anti vax. So I needed help through this and I actually called Jamie one day. I called, I reached out in the fall. In the fall. I had a pressing question which I haven't told Jamie. I'm going to say it now though, because this does it. It weaves into this story I believe. And this pressing question on my heart was, was going to be Jamie, I want to start a campaign and not literally, but to rename church. These places people go on Sunday and Wednesdays and maybe other days to learn about God. It's not right and wrong thing. I'm not condemning that. I'm not saying anything about that. I mean, you can go there and socialize and connect and learn about God and worship and do great things there. But that word and in Scripture, the only definition I can find in Ephesians 1, the church which is his body. And keep reading in Ephesians and other places, what's that body here for? What's it going to do? Why is it here? What's the purpose? And it's individual, unique living stones that make up that body. God told David in the Old Testament, no, don't build that temple. That was David's idea. God said, not a great idea. And then he told David, okay, go ahead. But you know, one's going to come after you. He's going to build this spiritual house of living stones and, and write his truth on our hearts individually and uniquely. For what you need in the moment as a member of the body. Elsewhere it talks about, these members are unique. The hand, the foot, the eye and the ear and the nose. We can't reject any. We need all of those members. So we've got to come together, we got to receive each other. But that was. That original question was rooted in love, out of compassion for these members of the body that I see come in my office every day or I get to interact with. There's a level of immaturity. Not saying that in an ugly way. I was super immature. And again, I'm still on my narrow path journey. But I'd say sat in that first step inside the narrow gate, 11 years old and sat down and sucking on a bottle of milk for 25, 30 years. And I see that and there's some confusion or lack of understanding because of that word. So my proposal was going to be, let's name it junior college, because there's, there's seminary. Everybody knows what seminary is. You go there, get your PhD, but then there's Bible college. You know, that's different than seminary. And you go there to learn lots of good Bible stuff. And, you know, below that level could be like a junior college kind of level. And you know, that was going to be my, again, not serious, but can we just call all these buildings on Sunday junior college? It's good. It's not disparaging. I mean, you're still going to learn good stuff, but it's not the, the church, which is his body. So that was the background on this. That was in the fall. Jamie was busy finishing his book. He said, call me in January. I did. I talked to his scheduler and they booked me for early March. Early March rolls around and my, my time slot and I'm not going to miss this. And the measles pops up and I'm down in Gaines county and I bring this laptop with me. And I had this slot of time picked out to do the interview with Jamie in between seeing the measles kids. And I asked for a private room with WI Fi so I could connect to the Internet. And they, they found one for me in Gaines county. And I walked in. Well, lo and behold, unknown to me, CNN was in there with their camera and their microphone. I didn't know this. And I walked right into the room and I'd already told CNN via email and phone calls earlier in the week, no, no, no, no, I can't talk to you on the record. Because I didn't feel like they could tell the whole story truthfully. And so I asked them to turn off their camera microphone and if they, I'd be polite about it, we could sit down, have a conversation off the record. And we did. And it was, I thought, really good. And it was emotional. And the producer, the lady started to tear up and I did, too. And then I told the, the producer and the cameraman and the reporter. Now, guys, you know, you're not going to Be able to air this tonight. Your boss won't let you. And they said, yeah, you're right. I said, well, if the truth cannot be put on the air, then I can't come on on, on the record. And what they did was try to convince me to come on the record for just this one sliver of the story and this one sliver. And I kept saying no, and it was time to interview Jamie and the pressure's on. But I was tempted to because I knew I had the data and I had. And I could convince them and I could just get on there and. But of course, part of me knew there's no way they're not gonna. So I stepped outside, called Jamie and said, jamie, I'm sorry, we're not gonna be able to do the interview, but I need some wise counsel. And he gave me wise counsel. And it brought such clarity. And I'm not saying I'm walking in that clarity perfectly because I'm still tempted. But love is. Has to be the motivation of my heart. Love for the people, love for the body, love for Jesus, this unity thing that's coming. The kingdom, the gospel of the kingdom, which is about love and connection, not to any denomination or institution. And just seeing, especially in my profession, the fear that I was. I mentioned at the top, this fear driven fear of death, fear of germs, fear is cancer, fear of disease, fear of being wrong, but that. That I have to be right. Identity, it's an identity thing and not just in my profession. It's pervasive and it splits us and divides us. So, Jamie Winship, thank you for coming to the show to bring this conversation to the masses. Kingdom versus empire. That's what Jamie told me in that phone call when I stepped out from cnn. So, Jamie, I don't know if there's a question in there or sermon though. [00:09:02] Speaker B: Wow. I liked it. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Well, I'm trying to channel my emotion and my energy and passion not into division and man, they were right. I'm trying to channel it into there's righteous and there's wicked, there's connection, there's separation, there's dark and there's light. And let's have a different worldview. And I guess that's the question. Can we just put everything into, let's get a worldview understanding where we can analyze every situation. The big ones like measles and the media coming down on me and colleagues coming down and little ones in your day to day with your wife, in a conversation with your kids or whatever, there's big Things, little things. I've been able to have conversations with people at the highest level of our government, in the health realm and in, in the legislative realm, and just seeing it's there too. It's all the same. Whether it's in your home, between two kids squabbling, or junior high student council or college level, or corporations, or all the way to our government. It's the exact same thing all the way up at the top. So the answer is, let's change our worldview. And that's what I asked Jamie to come on the show today. So I'll be quiet now. Jamie, thank you for being here. And any wisdom or comments you have to share would be greatly appreciated by me and everyone. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I, I love everything you're saying. I'm, I'm making notes while you're talking, thinking about all these issues that you're talking about. If, if we say, if we say, like you're correctly saying that the church body, Absolutely, it's the body, and that the body has to have a head, and the head is Christ. So that's, that's the structure. And without a body, the head can't be a head. Right. And so the head requires a body to be a head. As you're saying, Christ is the head of the body. And interestingly, the imagery of the church is the body. So you got to be talking about health. You have to be, you know, that would be the whole idea. And why? Because Jesus presents himself in Scripture not as a judge in a courtroom, but as a physician. So I don't know where you would have a more specific or accurate conversation about what is the church than with a group of physicians. Like, that would be a place where you would talk about it. Even the way Jesus approached social issues, political issues, he's doing it as a physician, not as, not as a courtroom judge, which is how we've presented him, a separation worldview. He's a judge. He's saying, this guy's right, this guy's wrong. And the idea judge is judgment. Like the judge judges with judgment, which all produces fear. Like as a police officer when I was working and even when I myself have been in courtrooms in other countries, no one wins in a courtroom. Nobody wins in a courtroom. There is a win there because nobody gets well, people get punished, there's retribution, but nobody walks out. Well, the victim doesn't walk out. Well, the perpetrator certainly doesn't walk out. Well, so to go in a courtroom is to no one's advantage on to go into A doctor's office should be to everyone's advantage. It should be. The goal in there is for the physician to analyze the situation and to ask the patient, which I know you do, is do you want to get well? Do you want to get well? And if you want to get well, if you want to get well, it involves spiritual, physical, all of these. Then here's the processes that you need to be in in order to get well. It's never forced. It's never, it's never. There's no. The penalty for refusing to get well is that you remain sick, as Jesus said. But Jesus doesn't drag people into healing. There's no forced treatment. Right, because it's an invitation to wellness and wholeness. So the whole picture, me in the scriptures, especially of Jesus, is us understanding and realizing that we're sick. Jesus said, I didn't come well people, I came for the sick people. It's understanding that we're sick, which is truth telling and confession. Coming to the physician and saying we are sick. These are the symptoms of how our sickness is showing itself. Your guilt and shame and saying to the great physician, we want to be well. Would you heal us and receive healing from that? That's the. And then as we're made well, then the parts of the body become healthy again, right? And we recognize in that wellness is who am I in the body? Who am I as a unique individual within the body? So what's my role in the body? I'm a hand, I'm an eye, and there's no competition in fighting inside the body because then the body. So it's all this picture of, in my mind, of physician and a patient, really, I just love that picture of Jesus. And so when you go to a physician like yourself and say, you know, I'm having stomach pains and I'm losing weight and I'm doesn't condemn me for the condition I'm in, the physician says, let's, here's the, here's. Here's the cause of that and here's how to get well. So when we go to Jesus and say, this is where I am sick, or this is where I'm feeling the pain, or this is where I'm falling apart, he doesn't, he doesn't punish us for being sick. So if, if there's another big theme of scripture is judgment doesn't deem. Judgment doesn't redeem. Judgment doesn't reconcile. Judgment doesn't even fix. Mercy does, Forgiveness does, Grace does, love does. So anytime in scripture, you see judgment Predicted or enacted, it's always followed by restoration. And reconciliation never ends with judgment. And I mean, like I was raised, the whole thing is just judgment. Like the whole. All of everything God's done is going to end up in a courtroom and we're just going to get bud and the judgment is the end. But that's not the theme of Scripture. All the prophets are saying, you're going to do this period of sickness and destruction by your own hand, by your own doing. But the end of that is health and wellness. Always. God's end is reconciliation, restoration. That's always the end game for the Lord. Never let that end in your judgment. And that's. And it's over. Otherwise, it's just fear producing. So I think what I think really, if we're going to talk this, we can look at a person, at a city, at a country, and we can say, is it healthy? That's the question. Is it healthy? Right? Not are they right or wrong? How do. Are they healthy? Is it healthy? Is it whole? Is it resilient? Like, that's, that's the way we should look at it. So fascinatingly, I was just the other day, I was listening this writer speak, and he's, he would be the farthest thing from an evangelical Christian you could imagine in every way. He was an. Is. He was, he was just the opposite of anything evangelical. But what his, his new book that he wrote, he's talking about the, the health of the United States of America. And he's saying the United States of America is in. Desperately ill and sick. And so when the interviewer was asking, like, like what's. How would you, how would you. Why is, how do you evaluate a country as sick? And he said, you have to go to the teachings of scripture to understand what health is. This is an atheist guy talking, he says, because whether, whether you agree politically with religion or not, he said that's a whole different thing. But for the United States of America, for a healthy liberal democracy, liberal in the sense of not political position, but philosophy, liberal democracy, a healthy free country to exist in, to be healthy, it. It has to operate on the three fundamentals that are only seen in the scriptures, in the Bible. So the interviewer was a little bit stunned. And so the interviewer said, well, what are, what are the three. What are the three principles? And he, and he was very careful. I'm, he said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you what they are. And you'll see immediately that I'm not talking about Christianity as a religion. Or I'm talking about fundamental principles of humanity. And he said, but these are the only principles which, on which you can build principle number one. And he said the founding fathers of the US actually understood these really well. Principle number one from the scriptures, do not be afraid. That was the number one principle of a healthy country is no fear. And he goes on to say that the number one exhortation in scripture said the most times from God to humanity, if you believe in God, whatever. But he said, but it's true. We cannot live in fear. We can't. Humans cannot function in fear. And any country that's built on the use of fear, it will never last, right? So all empires fail. Why? Because they're all built on fear. So if you can't build a nation on fear, you certainly maintain a healthy body sourced in fear. Or a congregation of the. I like you're talking about is correct. We're going more to an academy of sorts than to body of Christ. We're going to a training academy or a political academy more than we're going to. We're going here to get well. We're going into this place to get well. And number one thing we're going to do there is figure out how to get rid of fear, right? So from all of scripture, the number one principle you have to operate on is no fear. There is no fear in God. There is he. He doesn't operate in threat, none of these things because it destroys the human. The only, you know, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. The reverence, the awe, the, the, the overwhelming presence of God is the beginning of wisdom. But we're not afraid that he's going to murder us. You know, this kind of fear, he's gonna crush us. So that was the number one principle. The guy says in scripture number two, he said you have to live like Jesus. Jesus is the model human. Whether you think he is divine or not. He's the model of what a human is supposed to be like. Jesus operates without fear. He's a human that operates without fear. So it's amazing, you know, wouldn't it be interesting you could do a physical examination of Jesus just to see what his, his, you know, if you could like do a blood test what his system is like, because there's no anxiety in it, right? He doesn't have. That's never been at work in him. So it'd be super fascinating. He's never been afraid. He's never viewed a situation as a win lose scenario, right? Every he, it's not Life is not about am I going to win here or is it, or is it going to be a loss. When Jesus goes into a situation, he doesn't pray like which option to take. That's he doesn't pray like that like Lord, there's five options, you know, I could go here. He never prays like that. His prayer is not my will, thy will be done. Not my will, thy will. That's his prayer. Then he just moves forward in that because he can hear the Father, he can see the Father. And so his only prayer is not my will, I will be done. How much energies is at prayer safe? Because if you're, if you're, if you're not operating in fear, that would be your prayer. Because I'm not, I'm not afraid of the will of God. Right. His will is the best thing that could happen. Why? Because it's sourced in unconditional love. Right. So, so principle one, principle number one of a healthy person and healthy nation. No fear. You have. We have to have a process of getting rid of fear. If there's no fear in a situation, we'll do the right thing. We will do the right thing. Right. And if Jesus is the model other focused self emptying unconditional love even for enemy that life without fear. You are going to have an amazing nation. Right? Amazing. He said the third and final principle, most important forgiveness for the whole system has to operate in complete commitment to total forgiveness. He said now in the situation that we look at in the United States, he called it, he said what we have is thin Christianity, which is Christianity that's just kind of like whatever you want to do, just like that's not right. Or he called it sharp Christianity which is we're just going to run you over with our political viewpoints and our, we're just going to run you over with it, whatever it is. And he said that's neither of those are correct. What is correct is a society built on no fear. The government never does anything using fear or based in fear. No decisions are made fear based. And for humans, the human can only make decisions out of one of two motivations, either love or fear. Those are the only two motivators for any decision. So you can imagine in the circles that you're in if you could move the fear out, then you're left. The only motivator a human has left is love. What does a love based decision making process look like? Like it would be astounding. It would look like the cons. The greatest concern is the love of God and the love for others, that's what it would be. Not my will, I will be done. Not my will, thy will be done. So all decision making, from the individual level to the community level to the government level, all the decision making is motivated by love. No fear. Can you imagine? Okay, so in our nation right now, we have nothing but fear. Jesus as a model is nowhere close. Even in the Christian viewpoint of how to live, it's not. Jesus isn't the model. And forgiveness is, as you're saying, we don't forgive at all. Even what I would say, the Christian conservatives are not big on forgiveness. You're going to pay. If you violate our structure, you're going to pay for it. And so because we're in that system, it just creates incredible conflict, internal conflict, external conflict, and a complete loss of understanding the truth of who we really are. Just absolutely not present. It's all this self protect, self promotion. And so that worldview, that fear based, unforgiving worldview is the separation worldview. That is the worldview of 99% of the world. It's what Moses is trying to move the Israelites out of in Genesis. He's explaining worldviews. Genesis chapter three is that separation worldview. It's Eve in a situation that's sourced in love without fear. Absolutely. Christ like. And she moves out of it because of her fear. She's lose something or miss something with the temptation of the liar. God's withholding from you. So there goes the fear. Right? There it is. What do you mean God's withhold? What do you mean God's withholding from me? Well that over there, you could have that and you'd be better with that. But he's not going to give it to you because you're not worth it. And so the only option you have is to live inadequately or make your own adequacy. There it is. There's a separation worldview, scarcity, certainty, the pursuit of perfection and self focus. And Moses is saying this worldview is the worldview of everything you've ever seen as human beings so far in your existence. To the Israelites you know nothing but this worldview. The challenge for us currently is also the worldview that we know, all of us, as you're, as you're saying in your opening remarks there once that, once those, once you start getting identity from those test scores, you're in the separation worldview. Because now your value is coming from something other than God, other than you're in what God said about you. Now it's well, what do they say about me? As soon as you ask that question, you're, you're in, you start, you move to separation, right? You separate from the real, your true self, you separate from God. And then your decision making moves from any kind of love into fear. What do I have to do to get to here? What do I have to do to get to the next level? Oh, I'm never going to make that level. Oh well, I'm just going to live my life. And then you can speak to this better than anyone else. What happens to your body when that fear starts to go to work, right? And that stress level earlier and earlier in our lives and then we watch it just, the internal conflict produces the external conflict again. We're not living like Jesus. And then how can we forgive? Because forgiveness to us is as weakness as, okay, you're acquiescing to this to, you know, you're, you're not fighting for your rights, you're not being strong. One more thing I'll say about that and then I'll stop talking. When I was, I was driving, we were speaking at this conference for, you know, high level entrepreneurs. Just super interesting. And to go in there and to they're all, the whole, everything they're doing is based on scarcity and pursuit of wealth and influence. And to go in there and say instead of he who seeks to save his own life is going to lose it in the end. So we present on identity identity worldview, the very first things people say to us is not they don't talk about their business. They come to us and say, wow, I'm really struggling in my relationship with my son. Like that's how it hits them. It hits them right in their humanity. Suddenly the building of the business and all of that is over here. Because we talked more about their own heart, their own life, which, which gives them permission in a way to like, let's tell the truth about what's really going on in your life. And then they start and that's when we know, wow, we're talking to the real human now. Now they're actually going to come to us. And what they're saying is we are sick. That's what they say in so many words. Our family is broken, my life is broken. And, and because in the typical separation worldview presentations there is no place for that truth telling. Like it's just, nope, just going to keep going. So we had worked, we had gone, we're talking at that. And we were talking about the same, you got to live without fear. We need Jesus, the mom. We have to move in forgiveness. This is what keeps us healthy. This. I get a phone call from a person and he works with the church movement, the house church movement in Iran. He's one of the lead kind of guys in it. And he said he had been a long time to talk to you because we're very careful who we contact about what's going on inside of Iran. Sort of. Everyone knows that Iran has this massive move that people come into face really large. What's super interesting is we hate Iran. Like, our whole thing. Our whole thing is we're never talking to Iran again. Like, that's our foreign policy status. Our foreign policy status is lack of give. We're gonna. We're gonna pressure you, boycott you, smash you, until you come into line with what people in the world. You know, all the nations are. And because you're an evil empire and all this stuff, and, and you, you open the. You pull back the curtain on them, and they have a faster growing movement of people coming to faith than us, right? And so. And I was asking the guy, like, how do you know, what do they do? What are they doing? And he was telling me how they operated and how they don't have an academy to go to. They have these movements that are just exploding of people looking, how do we. How do we move without fear? How do we live lives, you know, of joy and forgiveness? And they're. And the way they're discovering that is they're. They're meeting Jesus. And so then I. And then they just tell each other, and then they start to care for each other and love each other into health. I said, who's in charge? And they said, whoever is. Whoever is one day ahead, understanding Jesus of the rest of them. So there's no hierarchy. There's no central location. It's just these. It's just like the early church. It's these communities coming together in tough situations, loving each other, caring for each other, modeling Jesus to one another and to those around him. And the Iranian Islamic fundamentalists can't even slow it down because they have nothing to compare to. Nothing. And so the gates of hell can't stop it. Right? And so that's. The connect world connection is like we're connected. We're all interconnected. We can't separate from one another. We can't use fear on each other, that we use unforgiveness on one another. We have to connect. And this is the connection worldview that Moses is talking about, which Jesus demonstrates. [00:32:48] Speaker C: Obviously Are you ready to take control of your health together? You're not alone. Dr. Ben as well as a mission driven team here at Veritas, created this online wellness membership. Because so many are suffering. We want to help more people by sharing the truth that we believe will change lives. Veritas Wellness Membership is more than just a wellness program. It's a movement designed to empower you with truth, practical tools and a support community at a price that's accessible for everyone. One membership covering your entire household. Upon signing up, you gain access to life educational resources, expert led webinars, live movement classes and exercise series, community groups and wellness initiatives, interactive classes as well as exclusive discounts on supplements and advanced lab testing. We also offer complimentary unlimited peace consults. A space for you to go deeper, discover who you are created to be and explore how stress contributes to disease. We believe in getting to the root cause and understanding why what we believe truly matters. Our team of wellness navigators are here to guide you every step of the way. So whether you're just starting your wellness journey or ready to go deeper, there's something here for you. So jump in today. We can't wait to walk this journey with you. Visit veritas wellnessmember.com to get started. [00:34:30] Speaker B: And in the connected worldview, when we come to an issue like vaccines, it really doesn't matter. Whatever issue we're coming, this is what we're coming together. Saying as we love each other, we're committed to each other, we're not moving in fear. God give us wisdom and understanding in this situation. What is the way to health? Like how be healthy in the situation that we find ourselves. And you take away scarcity and fear and humans will we have the mind of Christ. We will. And God will give us wisdom. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out and we'll love each other in the process. And when, but when that's not in play, when that's not how we come together, we're guaranteed to destroy each other. We're guaranteed to destroy each other. So it's interesting book I spoke on this Sunday, but when you're, when you're reading the Old Testament and you're reading the passages of Israel and that, it's these passages where it's, you know, it's like, and God sent a plague among the people and killed 3,000, or God told the Levites to go out and kill anyone that wasn't a part of them, they killed 5,000. And like the nut, these thousands are being slain by God. Super interesting how that's being described. Then when you go into the New Testament after the death and resurrection, Jesus, both Paul and the writer of Hebrews tell that same story again. And when they tell the story, they tell the same story of people dying. But they never attribute God as the killer. What they attribute to what killed the people, disease was complaining, was fear, was their own loss of the truth of who they people. Paul says in First Corinthians 10, they became disoriented in a dwarf view of themselves. That's how he describes it. And they were destroyed by the destroyer. And the destroyer in the Greek is complaining. It's infighting. Because the scripture also says Jesus came to destroy the destroyer, right? And so they're telling, Hebrews tells the same story in Hebrews 4. It's like, here's what, here's why they never entered the land of rest. They never entered rest here. And the rest here was the truth of who they are as being by God. Because they couldn't come into a right view of themselves as God sees them. They couldn't have any kind of rest. Even in the land of rest. They couldn't even enter it. And the whole Idea is numbers 1333 is standing, looking into the land of rest. They can only see it with a heart of rest, but with the heart of unrest. They look into the land, they see greater unrest and they won't go. And so they say, you know, we win the land. There's giants in the land. We're not able to do it. We are grasshoppers in our own eyes. And so we will live as grasshoppers. God didn't kill them, they killed themselves. I'm sure with the things that you're dealing with, is God killing us or are we killing ourselves because we live in a separated worldview of scarcity and certainty and opportunity and self promotion, which is our downfall. Which is our downfall. So that's a long, a long diatribe there. But I, I'm just, I. We've watched it and I know you have too. When you can take away fear in any situation, the whole thinking of the human being shifts and they will connect, they'll connect and then when they'll connect and their body will start to respond to the connection, right? And then all community responds to the connection. The whole thing that you were talking about with cnn, it's like even your words, they're separated. Everything is, everything is separate and put in conflict to every other piece, right? So you read this, you read this story and then you read this story and separate it and they conflict. Conflict. Because that's what the, that's how the light operates. It separates and sets in opposition to one another, which produces more and more fear. That's, that's all the lens of how we see the world. Change that lens and the culture will change. You can't change the culture without changing that lens. [00:39:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So would you say step one, because it seems like in interacting with lots of people, not, not just medical stuff like vaccines, Covid, all that, but since 2020 it seems like so much. And this is what people tell me all the time, this world is not what I thought it was. This revelation here, this one here, it can be about 9, 11, it can be about the financial system, it can be about, you know, Israel and Palestine and all kinds of, I mean any political thing, but just so much revelation of whoa, there's so much corruption. This isn't what I thought. And it's hitting people in a way that they're reacting in not a great way. And that's so step one, just the recognition that the whole goal of the empire is to divide you and use fear to drive you into the empire. So just number one, step one, recognition. This worldview, is it was this empire driven, fear driven or is this kingdom love driven? Just this recognition. Because I mean just think of social media when you said, you know, caring about what other you're making decisions based off what others think of you. Well, that's what the whole social media thing is. I gotta have people think good of me so they'll subscribe and like, and, and get more views and all. I mean social media just totally drives that. Of course the media, fear, fear, fear that. That's their whole mantras, fear based. And then of course in my profession, everybody's scared of death, dying, sickness, disease, all that. I mean you're just surrounded by it. So just that recognition, step one and then. Well, so do. Would you agree with that? Step one is just recognition. And step two. Okay, I recognize that. What's my practical next step for what do I do? And I can tell you for months, viewpoint. I mean these thoughts came in during this last many weeks, especially when the phones and emails started blowing up with a lot of ugliness and hate mail from the media driven, fear based stuff. I got real tempted. Oh no, what about this and what about that? And I had to take captive that thought and I had to speak the truth. My identity does not come from my medical license. My provision does not come for my medical license or my patient. And I had to, like, say that and not just say it. I had to believe it. I had to believe this truth in my heart. So maybe that's, Maybe I'll answer my own question. Step two. Step one, I had to recognize fear was trying to come in, and that's Empire. And step two, bring the truth to those exact specific questions. I was, I was worried about having an anxiety about and let the truth set me free. But like, practically, you know, there's so many people suffering right now because of the concerted effort by the empire to divide and to use fear. So maybe go practical. Step one, two, three. What do people actually do? [00:42:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think, again, I think we can just. I think we can go back into scripture and even into history and look at this. I mean, the Empire's always been around, you know, as far, far back as Cain and Abel and, and then the, the, the sons of Cain, you know, is the building of empire for sure. So that whole first part you're saying is like, recog. Recognize that there's two worldviews. Like there are two different. There's not one. And, and the way you recognize the separation worldview is the use of fear and scarcity. That's you. That, that immediately identifies it. [00:43:18] Speaker A: It. [00:43:19] Speaker B: And so I, I just listen to anyone that you're talking to, anyone from your neighbor to your mayor to the, the president, the pastor of your church, listen for fear and scarcity in the, in the. How they present. It's very quick. It'll be right there. And it's, it doesn't have to be loud. It'll just be there, right? You'll hear it coming to get us how to fight. You know, we gotta produce, we gotta get out. You'll hear it. And so when you recognize it, you'll recognize it in yourself. You want to recognize it in yourself. All of that is called confession. All of that is called confession. I'm just saying. I'm just confession. I now recognize, you know, if I'm in, if I'm in my local church, and I say, I now recognize that our leadership is speaking from fear and scarcity in a separation worldview. They're just using Bible verses to ratify or verify or confirm it. That's what they're doing, weaponizing it, or I'm using those words. So when I, when, when I'm working group, I'll just say, write down, grab hold of anytime in your thinking you're using not enough those two words. Where are those in your vocabulary? So, so, like in your scenario or Mine as a police officer, when I was a police officer. If I'm going to do something that I think God invited me into doing, then I'm going to lose my job over my confession. I have to tell the truth. This to me seems the right thing to do. However, the reason I'm not going to do it is because I'll lose my job. This is already viewing myself as less than who I really am. That's a dwarf view of myself because I'm saying I'm a person that God's not going to protect. I've got to protect myself. Already you're off already. You're the grasshopper out in your own eyes. And so now I can't go this route. That's eliminated to me. So I, like, go with the system, even though I don't think the system is right, but I'm going to go with it and have to commit to trying to justify why I did it. So all of it's false. It's all now going to be false right deep down inside. So truth telling is the most difficult thing humans to do. It is not because we're liars per se, but just because we don't really know what is true. Like, what's the truth in this? Well, I just made a good stewardship decision. No, you didn't. There's a quote in Mere Christianity where in the chapter on he wants us, it's called he wants us to be saints. And CS Lewis, his first paragraph is, you don't understand who God wants you to be. He wants you to be a saint. He's determined that you be a saint and then he'll do whatever it takes to walk you into that level of saint, even though you're not going to want it, even though you're content to be an average person. He says, and then he says, any resistance to God walking you into sainthood is not humility, it's cowardice. That's what he calls it. Because God will walk you into it, but you're not going. So you can try and justify it because you're a coward. I said that in church. Because you're a coward. And anyone that wants to pursue that level of becoming a saint like God wants you, is not an egomaniac. It's called obedience. Like I'm. It's obeying what God's inviting you into. So when you. So that first step of confession is to say, okay, I. I have a sense in my. That I to do this. However, the reason I'm not going to do it is because I'm afraid that if I do this, my job, I'll be ostracized, I'll lose my license. You know, all of that stuff. That's the truth telling part. When you do that, now you have opportunity for repentance, which is the Lord to speak to you, to tell you the truth about the situation. This is what gives us hope. It's for him to say, either you're not going to lose your license, don't worry about that part of it, or you are going to lose your license. But I have something far greater than that license. Like that kind of his encouragement forward, right? Yeah. No one has lost mother, father, sister, but that hasn't been rewarded 100 times in this life. Like that's him saying, don't think the empire can stop you. Do not fall for the lie. And the, and the ultimate threat of the empire is that it can kill you. That's its ultimate threat. And that's why Jesus is like, I even took that one away. So you're. So your truth telling allows for God then to speak truth back into you. [00:48:33] Speaker A: Or. [00:48:34] Speaker B: And sometimes it's like, I need you to step out of the empire now. I want you out. Which we've, we've had guys, we're working within a profession who want to transform that profession. And as we were praying together and working on, and they're very skilled in their profession, the Lord said to them, in order for you to transform this vocation, you need to step out of it and come back at it. Inside of it. They have too much hold on you. Empire has a stranglehold on you. So if you're going to, if Israelites are going to change Egypt, they have to come out of it, come back to it as an infant, like Moses had to do. He came out of it and came back to it. Moses's strategy inside the empire was to kill people that beat up Hebrew slaves. That's the empire. That's the empire strategy of what to do. He came out of it. And when he came back into it, he never killed another person. Other, other than where God was the one in charge of the situation. It wasn't Moses just saying, and I'm going to do this to fight and I'm gonna do this. He very much submitted to God saying, you do it the way I, I'll lead you in how to do that. So the truth telling is step one. And then, and then it's okay, Lord, I'm afraid to do this because of these reasons. And I'm confessing that to you. What do you want me to know about that thing? Repentance is him leading you into the way he wants you to think about it. And then your next step is, what do you do? Like, okay, practically, what do I do? Right? So I'm in the right thinking. I'm not doing what I'm gonna. I'm not reacting against the Empire with fear and conflict. That's the temptation by the enemy. It's like, come fight us, come fight us. Fight me. Because they'll kill you. They love. Like, don't try and overpower us. You'll never do it because we have all the resources and you don't have them. So that's not. We fight weapons different than that, right? The Bible says, but we, but we better. We have greater weapons, way better weapons. So then repentance is turning like saying, okay, Lord, we're going to fight this injustice. We are. Because God hates injustice. How do we fight it? So sometimes you walk around and blow trumpets. There's all different ways that God has of handle it, all different ways of doing it. But he wants to do it in a way where he gets glory for it, right? And not us not be overpowered or. We fought him back. Fought back. It's interesting to watch like Harvard fight the President. It's just Empire on Empire, you know, no one's gonna. No win. It's not gonna. That's just Empire versus all of. It's just Empire fighting Empire. So how do we fight the Empire? With spiritual weapons. So then practically, it's really asking the Lord. Okay, what do you want me to know? In what way do we fight this? In what way do we stand against it, really? And then like writing those down, Remember again, the motivations of our heart are either love or fear. In love, how do we fight this? In love, how do we fight this? That's hard. That's a difficult question. Because the enemy always tempting us to fear or anger. You got to stay in the love, which is why forgiveness is the huge component, right? Constant forgiveness. Constant forgiveness. But we're not giving up. We're just not going to get trapped in the enemy's traps. So we're fighting in love. We're determined. We have. We have righteous anger, a lot of it. You. We need that anger. It drives us, but it's got to be against injustice and not against people, right? And then, okay, so in that anger, don't sin. Okay, so now practically, and I think, and I love the way you do this, is never tell God that what you're doing is too small. Don't ever, don't ever believe the lie that what you're doing is all. It's not, it's not small. That's a temptation. Again, the empire is measuring, measuring how much impact are you really having? That's the wrong question. It's ask God, are we obedient to how you've called us to fight this injustice? Are we following you into the battle because he wins is not the way the empire wins. So the temptation for us all the time is like, this is too slow. This is too small. We don't have the resources. All of that kind of thinking. And I think that's where you really have to keep coming back to confession. And maybe 12 times in a day going, is this right? Are we doing the right thing? Is this what you want, Lord? Are we walking with you? Because it seems slow, it seems weak. It seems whatever those confessions are. But do you see how you just have to live in a state of confession? [00:53:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:43] Speaker B: Constant being, being, having your mind transformed. I, I, I say to Donna all the time, my wife, let's just go, let's just go get a job. Picking up trash on the street. The reason, and I say it out loud all the time, and I mean it because we have done before. I'm just, all I'm doing is saying to the enemy, I don't care if I'm picking up trash in the street, I'm staying in this. And I don't care what status level I'm at, I'm still in it. I'm still in it. And if fishermen can do it, if fisherman can take on Rome, we can take on Rome, we can do it. It can be done. He showed us how to do it. Other focus, unconditional self acting for your enemy is the strategy. So I just had a phone call with a guy, you probably know who he is, and he was telling me about the board of directors, their big medical thing that he's a part of. He's been in board meetings lately and it's unbelievable. The hostility level, not care for patients, money hostility level that we're not making enough money. And he said it's heartbreaking and that the real physicians, the people who came in this big organization to really heal people, are resigning right and left because the empire can't hold those kind of people. They, they won't do it. They'll drop out. Good for them. Good for them. They shouldn't, but it means they lose money, drop. But they're trying to make a statement that we're not in this to build a big corporation. You, you know, this is your own story. We want to love the people. The empire kicks you out. Right? So that's my. So tell the truth. Acknowledge. And then fasting the Lord, how do I turn and go the right direction? How do I have the right thinking in this? And then the transformation part is, okay, what's my. What's my action today to counter this huge colossal lie Today? What do we do? And I love. You guys are doing a lot actually. And, but. And all of the streams need to be crossing each other. You know, we need to be working together in all the different streams because enemy also loves to isolate us out. Right. There's that crazy doctor over there. Here's this crazy former police officer over here. They're all nuts like crazy. But the more that we come together, the more that we speak together. Like, like one of the. One of the big entrepreneurs that interviewed me, he's. He talked all the time about mitochondria. He's talking about building successful business. He's talking about mitochondria. He's talking about energy and light and relationship with Christ. All of that. He had you next to him doing a section. You know it all. It's all the same. It's all. We're not separate. We're. We are part of a body. Right together too. And we got it. We have to keep joining together, I think. [00:57:00] Speaker A: Yeah. For sure. Abiding in him that constant because. Because you, you, you catch yourself. Yep, I. I confessed. Yep. I saw that. Yep. That was fear based. Okay, confess. You get that confession, you hear? Okay, here's how we're going to do it. And you almost get a relief. Okay, well you got to keep. It's a constant abiding, abiding, abiding. You. You can't. That branch in the vine, it's a constant every day. Every day. And that there's. There's so many distractions and you kind of want to cruise control for a while and you know, not in a pressure in a good way of, of abiding and, and getting those marching orders and watching for the enemy and oh yeah, I see you over there. Oh yeah over here now. And I mean it's just a different way of living and thinking and you kind of got to be trimmed up in that and you've got to be. You've got to be proactively watching for this empire, separation, fear thing versus kingdom connected love and just that worldview. It's good all back to this worldview so you've laid it out so so well Jamie, I just want to encourage the listeners too because it's like coming at us. I mean I just read an article, three physicians wrote this and I mean I almost hate to mention this because such a between vaccines and this what I'm about to say talk about the two most pro inflammatory things but these three doctors have been in in Gaza working on kids and adults too I'm sure but the article was really about the starving children and how many kids have died. And then I'm reading an article that a little, not little but a town down in Texas, San Marcos city council was going to vote on I don't know the exact wording of the resolution but basically hey we don't like all the conflict over there and and the Gaza people and children need to be recognized as this is a problem and the governor of Texas says if you pass that resolution no more state funds will come to you. It's this constant again that's one subject. There's all these other subjects. It's like everywhere you turn the whole tariffs thing the economy is going to it is 247 coming at you so that you know, don't I didn't want to just come in here talking about the vaccine thing and measles and all that because it's everywhere. It's everywhere you turn. So we have to get this as representatives of a kingdom that's not of this world, world in the world, not of it and our citizenship is outside of this thing. We have to have a different set of goggles that we're looking through so that we interpret this and we can bring the kingdom through us and of course we got to die and our own self centeredness has to die. Self preservation, self protection all the fear based self, self, self. So that's why I love living fearless. That's Jamie's book IdentityExchange.com is the website Identity Exchange on YouTube and anything else you want to say Jamie we're coming to the top of the hour but closing comment thought how people can follow you all that kind of stuff but thank you so much. This is personally for me and my Jamie, my wife been so beneficial. You and Donna have been so impactful into my staff, patients and of course the audience and and I know so many beyond my sphere of influence but thank you for being who God made you to be and teaching us and encouraging us on how to be who God made us to be. And now we can all continue to connect and the kingdom will continue to come. The light will continue to come into that dark. So we don't have to figure out how to deal with all this corruption. God's got it figured out. We got to confess, listen and obey and keep walking in the truth. [01:00:41] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. And that's all we can do each day. One day. God is only present in the present. That's how we have to. And you know, we. We have. We have to remind ourselves we're not the Messiah. Like you're not the Messiah. Like Messiah be the Messiah. He's the head, we're the body. Let's walk with what he says. And again, as you're saying every day, moment by moment, presenting your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable, which is your spiritual service of worship. And don't conform to the patterns of the empire. Don't. Don't do it. And trained in them your whole life. Stop doing it by presenting yourself holy unto God and then being transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will know, then you'll know what to do and how to walk and where to. You know where to stand strong and where to back off and all of those beautiful. And remember, you are a stream. You're a little stream crossing with other little streams making a river. And this is the way the whole universe works. And that those streams keep crossing, they make a river and that river is going to go to an ocean. That's how it works. And so you can't push the river. You can flow with the river. So flow with the Lord. But he's not, he's not doing nothing. Don't be. I tell our guys all the time two temptations is to believe that Satan's doing nothing and God's nothing. They're both active. Like pay attention to both. They're both active. But the enemies are already lost. So don't act like enemies won. The enemy's already lost. Don't act like he's won. Live like he's lost. Live like Christ has is the victory. Yeah. [01:02:26] Speaker A: Amen. He has won. We just need to receive that truth. Okay, Jamie, thank you very much. We're out of time. I really appreciate. I know you're super busy, but man, this helps me. Helps so many. So thank you for being with us. Identity exchange.com Guys, that's Jamie's website. His books, his videos are on there. YouTube identity exchange on YouTube also. So check that out. Veritas wellness member.com is where you can find this and all the podcast platforms and YouTube. We will be back next week. Thank you all for joining us. Thanks, Jamie. [01:03:00] Speaker B: Thank you. Thanks for having me. [01:03:02] Speaker A: You bet. Bye. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Bye.