Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, guys. Welcome to this week's show. A little introduction before we bring in the. The guest. Just want to say we're taking a little bit of a pause this week on that deep spiritual stuff we've been talking about the last few weeks.
And going to get into the mitochondria, copper, iron dysregulation with Morley Robbins. If that's a new name for you, buckle up. Morley brings lots of research to the show. I've interviewed him over 20 times over the years, so. But just wanted to say, guys, encouragement, hopefully. I know these last few episodes have been a little edgy, a little deep, a little controversial, maybe a little could potentially rob your peace even.
And that's not the intent.
So just want to say my intent is to encourage you to keep seeking, seek the truth. Ask Holy Spirit to lead you all truth. Where have you been deceived? Blinded, not thought correctly, not been taught correctly, not interpreted correctly? I mean, I. I'm not saying I have it all figured out, but bringing some of these guests on the past few weeks to just try to plant a few seeds and encouragement to consider some things that maybe you haven't been taught or haven't considered is again, my heart being the mental health of especially the younger generations that are just being consumed with information overload and psychological warfare.
And we just need to try to bring a little understanding and wisdom and revelation to all the knowledge, all the information, and ultimately let the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth. Not me, not any preacher, any commentary.
So if. If things haven't set well these last few weeks, that, again, not the intent.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: And we're.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: We're going to dive into some other things in the coming weeks, too.
And not trying to be controversial or rub you the wrong way, but ultimately just trying to get the focus on a deep, deep understanding of who God is and who we are.
And at the end of the day, love your neighbor, and everything's just Kingdom versus Empire. And the Empire uses fear to drive you into that Empire, thinking separation versus Kingdom connection.
Love your neighbor.
When fear kicks in, guys, in the physical realm, what happens is your cells shut down, your mitochondria shuts down, and your copper iron disregulation goes wild.
We're going to talk about that today. And that was the original thing that drew me to Morley, and I'll explain more of that as we start the show here. But Morley kind of connects the fear part to what happens in the physical in your cells and how it shuts down that mitochondria. So hope you enjoy the show today.
We'll jump right in with Morley.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of you're the Cure. We've got a return guest. I meant to go back and count how many times we have had Morley.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: Robbins on the show.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: I didn't get it done, but I'm pretty sure it's over 20, maybe pushing 30. And I'm excited to announce the Root Cause Protocol conference, Ignite the Innate Healer, February 27th and 28th, 2026. And that'll be up in Denver, Colorado. A lot of great speakers. We'll talk more about that conference here in a minute.
I do want to just bring people up to speed. It has been a year or two since Morley's been on the show. And for new listeners, you can go back on the website veritas wellnessmember.com Click Resources Podcast, and then you can find Morley on the dropdown of all the different guests. We've had Morley Robbins and literally dozens of interviews. There's. And I just want to say real quick, what intrigued me so much when I first got introduced to Morley and his work was he was bringing basically how I saw it was the scientific proof, which, you know, we all kind of need that these days. Show me the study. Prove it to me. My intellect's got to be convinced before I'll take a step in any in that direction.
But what he was proving was what I was seeing in my clinical setting.
Was it when people are in fight or flight mode, they hit a ceiling in their healing or, or they get stuck, or they just can't get all the way. Well, and then here comes morally to explain this fear, this cell danger response.
And when you feel like you're in danger and you, you go into fear mode, there are biochemical things that kick in at the cellular level and in particular at the very, very core root magnesium kicks out of the cell, iron gets into the cell, and then metabolic chaos happens.
And he just explained it so well, but also brought this piece in that I didn't quite understand about excess iron in the body and how it's so easily missed because notice I said in the body, not necessarily in the blood. You can have excessive iron in your tissue and in your joints, in your brain, in your liver. It doesn't show up in the blood work. And we've all been consuming various toxic forms of iron from iron fortified food since the 1940s. So basically all Americans are iron overloaded. But your blood may not show it. There's a lot there, guys, and we'll get into some of that today. But you can go back to those old podcasts and get some deep dives. And we're going to take some deep dive today. But before Morley, I bring you on, I just have to say I think you'll appreciate this.
I read this article literally 2 days ago and I'm going to read a clip from this article. The name of the article When Medicine Leads to More Medicine. And here's the excerpt from the article.
Only 4 out of 120 doctors got it right when older veterans developed leg swelling after starting Gabapentin, America's fifth most prescribed drug. Gabapentin.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Highly prescribed.
Only 4% of their physicians recognize the medication as the culprit of the leg swelling, according to a recent study.
The rest prescribed diuretics, water pills for what they thought was heart failure or vein problems. And those water pills then caused dizziness, dangerous drops in potassium, depleted sodium levels. Six patients ended up in the er.
This phenomenon is known as the prescribing cascade.
One drug causes side effects that doctors mistake for a new disease, triggering another prescription that creates its own problems, leaving people trapped in a sea of unnecessary and potentially harmful medications. And in many cases, and it can be challenging to find, it can be challenging for doctors to determine whether new symptoms stem from a patient's medication or signal an emerging health issue.
That's just one drug, gabapentin, the fifth most commonly prescribed drug in America. And these are only the most common side effects.
When you start to stack more than three medications into a human body, not only do you get the individual side effects of each individual medicine, but then you get interaction. Of the three or more medications which most Americans are on or at least over 50 years old are on more than three medicines, you get interacting effects. There's an untold cascade of symptoms that come just from the medication.
And the medication's not treating the very original medication. And I don't care if it's acid reflux meds, hypertensive meds, cholesterol meds, you name the med, you're not actually treating the root cause.
So you can imagine the disaster that we're in. Not only do we change our food and then we teach doctors only how to treat a symptom with a pharmaceutical, and then doctors don't recognize the known side effects. Only 4 out of 120 doctors don't, you know, could recognize this potential side effect. And you just get another pharmaceutical. It is a absolute hamster wheel of disaster.
But Morley already knows this very well. Most probably of our listeners know this Very well. But I wanted to start with that just as a reminder that we're in a system guys.
It doesn't teach doctors how to ask the questions and dig for the truth and dig into the literature.
So Morley Robbins doesn't have an MD behind his name and that's actually a plus and a benefit because he has gone into the research and he Synthesized what the PhD guys in the lab are showing and that doesn't get synthesized in the clinical setting typically. And Morley is, is doing that.
And like I said while ago, the reason I got so excited when I first met Morley is because he was proving the biochemical pathways of why just quote unquote the basics. Eat like your ancestors move, get some sunshine, get good minerals, get good fat soluble vitamins, eat some organ meats, cod liver oil, etc, get some real salt, extra magnesium and donate some blood to get rid of that extra iron that got stored up in your tissue from all this excessive fortified iron rich foods. He explained all the intellectual reasons behind what we call the four pillars. Nutrition, hydration, movement, peace. And Morley Robinson is root cause protocol lines up so well and synergistically and that's why he and I got along so well, I think. And not to mention the fact he's a really nice guy. Pretty, pretty humble to get a little bit, a little bit steamed up when he sees certain things, certain ignorance but more welcome back to the show. So glad to have you and I'm super excited about the conference. We need to plug that talk about that at the end of February so there's still time to get tickets. But welcome back. Glad to have you.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Well, delighted to be here. And that, that's a wonderful way to show with an article like that. I was just looking up, I found an article online.
I don't know whether they talk about it in there but, but gabapentin is known. It's a potent activator of potassium channels.
So potassium is going to go out which is going to cause the swelling just as I noted. I, I actually didn't know that but.
And just for the, for those that may not know the backstory, I think the most important thing I learned from, from Matt Edwards other than he's a heck of a too.
He's got a, he's got a better accent than I've got but he into the scene with a chip on my shoulder.
Having grown up in a sickly family, having spent 32 years working in hospitals thinking that the doctors were the bad guys and he introduced me to a very important phrase he Said Morley.
There are unintended consequences.
I didn't learn this in my training that there were these machines and mechanisms in the body that we weren't exposed to. And so I think it was probably the most important grounding stand the vulnerability of practitioners because you're a subject of your training and your intention is to help people. But, but you've got an incompletion. And I think what has been your hallmark is your passion for wanting to know the rest of the story, to really dig deeper and find out what else is involved here. And I would, I would have predicted you might have been the fifth physician that figured that out, that it was the drug, not the.
Some other disease that was a problem.
So it's great to be back. I just happened to, to Google how many podcasts have I done since I started this journey and according to AI and we'll talk about AI, but according to AI, I've 381 podcasts.
It's like, wow.
I think 10% of them not, not quite tempers, probably about 8% have been with. I really thank you for the opportunity to have that extended conversation because we've, we covered a lot of ground for a number of years.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: We have. It's a, it's a big education and morally I want to get into AI too, but I don't want to run out of time and, and I want to talk about the conference too, right off the bat, maybe before we jump AI so people know they can check it out the website, get their tickets, all that other speakers. Can you talk about that just real quick?
[00:13:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. February 27th and 28th Saturday in Aurora, Colorado, which is a suburb, southwest suburb of Denver.
We are bringing folks in from all over the world that are part of the RCP community. But we also have a powerhouse set of speakers. Very proud that you will be a part of that faculty.
We also have Jamie Collins, who's a professor at University of Florida in Gainesville.
What makes Jamie unique is that he speaks three languages.
He speaks copper, iron and magnesium. One of the few scientists that can through all three minerals.
And it was really interesting. Just the other day I was talking with him and I learned how he got into it. And he was doing a study years ago, 2005, 20 years ago, which was really the beginning of his research career. And he was studying iron deficiency and studying the genetic response to iron deficiency. And I said, well Jamie, were you studying both iron deficiency in the blood and the tissue? He said, oh, that I was making sure that the animals were in fact iron Deficient in the tissue.
I said, oh, okay. I said, but did you study copper? Not.
He said, I know about copper. Then he said, that was, that was before I understood that copper was a critical regulator of iron. And so we just had this amazing concept. And so when he explained what actually happened as a result, I said, do me a favor. He said, what's that? I said, would you share that story at the meeting? He said, that's a great idea. Done that. He said, but it would give people a window into the mind of a scientist. They, they know what they know, but they don't know what they don't know. It was, it was very what. But his saving grace was he very quickly learned about copper. And I think Jamie, Jamie Collins worked to enlighten people, both practitioners and scientists, about the interplay between these two metals. So he'll be a keynote speaker as well.
We've got Mike Gosweiler, who's a periodontist in the Indianapolis area, graduate of the rcp, just as you are.
And he's going to be talking about and how sensitive it is to iron and how it reveals the health of the body.
The oral cavity is a wind of the systemic system.
And.
But he's also going to do something that I don't think very many people know about. He has a device from Italy.
Italians really understand iron. They're really good at it.
What I've learned over the years is that scientists from the Hunt begin with the letter I are really good at iron.
Iraq, Iran, Italy, Ireland. It's fascinating.
But he has a device that measures the ferro oxidase activity in the oral cavity.
He can, he can tell people, and he plans to, to do this, wants people to know that we can measure the viability of copper in our oral cavity, which is a window into the overall body. And I think that's going to be fascinating.
But he will be talking about his experience as a periodontist and what the RCP to completely transform his practice.
We have a physician, Shelly Cole, who's over in Temple, Texas, a relative neighbor of yours. And she did her training at her dad. Her dad went to Harvard. I've forgotten where her mom went. She was a doctor too. And she. How can I beat that? So she went to Mayo Clinic and got her degree at Mayo. But now she, she really has applied the RCP to heal her patient population. But her principal focus is to get them off medications by strengthening the host so they're not dependent on, on these medications.
And she shared with me it was quite, quite Surprising that as she dug into it, the people who are using statins have a notable elevation in their blood sugar.
And what she's found is that as she takes people off of statins typically have a 40 to 50%, 40 to 50 point drop in their blood sugar levels.
The reason why this is important is that when the blood Sugar gets above 120, you, you, I, I'm sure would get nervous with your patients if sugar consistently was over 100, but certainly over 120.
But when you get into the research, you'll find that in 2019, a group of Russian scientists discovered that blood sugar above 120 causes the ceruloplasmin to blow up and then the copper and loses its connection to its regulatory protein.
And so that's, that's a really big deal. What I learned very recently, more fashion, is when urea gets into the 6 to 8 range, same mechanism takes place, it's the cerule.
And so the important thing here is that if we don't know about ceruloplasm, out of sight, out of mind.
But if you do know about, you're like, oh my gosh, that, that's a significant. And what happens is that copper becomes unbound.
It binds to albumin or transcuprine, which are other proteins in the blood, but they don't have the same potency.
And then what, what happens in the re is that they, once copper, once the ceruloplasmid loses its battery pack, if you will, because it should have between six days inside the protein, but once it loses its battery pack, you've lost the regulation of iron and then iron becomes more reactive in the body.
There's more oxidative stress, there's a, there's more fatigue because we're not making as much ATP under those conditions.
And what did they do the spotlight and blame the copper for the problem, when in fact it's the dysregulated iron that got out of kilter because the ceruloplasms its battery packet. So Shelly's going to be talking about the importance of the rcp, particularly as it relates to her practice.
We're going to have a celebrity chef there, James Barry.
He used to cook for Tom Cruise and people at that level and he's developed a whole line of products.
Name of his company is called Pluck and they're all based on.
And he's not only going to tell us his journey to discover the importance of these organ meats, he's going to teach people how to cook organ and how to freeze dry them. If you don't want to cook them, you can slice them up and freeze dry them and still just as effective. But he's a very entering individual. If you don't know him, maybe you do, but he's going to bring another perspective.
I will certainly be bringing my latest research. I just don't know what it's going to be.
Every week is a new, a new journey.
But we've got folks who are going to be talking about parasites and how prevalent they are in a copper deficient body.
And we've got one of our colleagues, John Potter, got his original degree in acupuncture. Then he went to England to get his MD degree and he's going about the transformation of his practice.
He tends to work more in the mental health emotional field and how transformational it's been for his patient community to underscore the importance of the components of the root cause protocol. So I think it's going to be a fascinating faculty and we've got Martha Carlin who I'm, I'm sure you know, she'll be talking about the microbiome and all the, that she's had now with understanding not just the microbiome, but the subtle structure and physics of the endothelial cells and their dependence on things called the glycocalyx. I know you've done some session. It's absolutely fascinating what, what they know about, about the glycocalyx. They're kind of like the hairs on our skin, but they're our body.
And guess what they caved to, they caved to iron.
And, and what is important for people to understand is that there are a trillion endothelial cells in our body.
So that's 1% of our cells is endothelial cells and they, they line the vasculature of our body.
But what's important, back in the period from 1984 to 1991, just this period, enterprising scientists discovered that there's 470,000 ceruloplasmin receptors on each endocell.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: There's 500,000 ceruloplasm receptors on each red blood cell.
Nobody talks about that, do they?
[00:24:00] Speaker A: No.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: And so there's this gap between, there's this physical gap in our knowledge about what is the plasma's role in the body.
Why would each endothelial cell be bathed in hundreds of thousands of ceruloplasma cells? Maybe the ceruloplasm thing is, and the challenge, and we've discussed it on air and off air.
The challenge is, can measure the level, the height of celo plasma in the body, but we can't measure its iq, we can't measure its activity.
I don't know. I just think that's one of the great blind spots of healing, is not knowing that the intelligence of these proteins to exert their influence on the body. And what I've really nailed down since we've. We've last spoken is I can deny different enzymes that are expressed by ceruloplas.
I can identify 15 different substrates that are processed by cerule.
And yet if you go to the average doctor, doesn't matter what, what degree they've got, they don't know what you're talking about. They remember that question on the board, you know what you should plasma to Wilson's disease. And they'll tell you it's elevated, but they don't know why. And.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, let me just interject real quick, Molly, for the listeners. Ceruloplasm, that Morley keeps saying this word, that's just a protein in the body. And how I describe it, and I think Morley does too, is a Swiss army knife.
There's so many different functions that this protein can do. Just like a pocket knife, Swiss army pocket knife.
However, imagine that knife. All those different gadgets are just closed.
They're not opened up to function and do their job. They're closed when you don't have bioavailable copper plugged into that protein. So that's the key is having this bioavailable copper plugged into this protein ceruloplasm. And then, boom, presto, it can open up. All the different gadgets in this pocket knife can open up and do these different things, functions, different jobs in the body. And why it matters so much in relationship to iron is one of these functions of this protein, ceruloplasm, is to help the iron be escorted properly and recycled properly through the body. Because most of our iron is in the red blood cell. I think most people kind of know that. But those red blood cells die all the time. They're supposed to, you know, dependence. 60 days, 90 days, somewhere in that window.
And so you need to recycle. When a red blood cell dies, all those, all that iron in it needs to go somewhere and it needs to be recycled back to the bone marrow. So your bone marrow can make a new red blood cell. I mean, this is a beautiful process of recycling, recycling, recycling. I think Morley uses a square dance caller. You know, grab Your partner dose, you go, round and round and round you go.
And it's a ceruloplasm protein with the copper in it that is so vital to this iron recycling. And as I mentioned earlier, we ate so much iron from fortified food. So if you ate cereal, chips, bread, anything with this enriched white flour from the 1940s and on, you've got flooded with this iron.
And the same time we've depleted our copper and our magnesium and our retinol, vitamin A. Those three kind of go together and work hand in hand.
Our diet changed from ancestral to process. We lose these minerals, our farming techniques have changed. And so it's this perfect storm. Flood the body with extra iron, kill the copper, magnesium, retinol, vitamin A, and boom. Inflammation ensues, oxidative stress ensues, and it's just a nightmare. And the hardest part, probably the whole deal, is people have been trained, even doctors, to think low energy.
Maybe you're iron deficient, take some iron, get an iron infusion, maybe you're anemic and your blood work maybe even looks that way, but it's because the iron is stuck. The recycling system's broken. So the iron gets stuck in the tissue, don't get recycled properly, and you could actually look a little anemic in your blood. But that's not the issue. The issue is actually the whole system's broken. And. And it boils down mostly to this ceruloplasm protein that Morley's talking about. It's not functioning as a Swiss army knife because of lack of copper, lack of magnesium, lack of retinol. So that's kind of just a summary of that and even another layer of trickiness if you go to the Internet and you Google and try to get answers on this subject, especially if you use AI.
And Morley did that. He just sent me an email this morning with the question that he inputted. Here's the answer.
But it's garbage in, garbage out. With AI, AI can be a.
A good tool, can make some efficiencies in your life, I guess. But if who put the information into that thing?
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: That's the key. So, Morley, maybe talk a little bit about what you discovered by asking AI about this whole iron copper thingy.
[00:29:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. And let me just point out one real quick fact. And then I get to the AI recycling system that Dr. Ben is talking about.
Every day, we lose 1% of our red blood cells, and that's 200 billion red blood cells that need to be turned over every 24 hours.
200 billion.
And the amount of iron it takes to support that is 25 milligrams of iron. It's a very tiny amount of iron.
Very small amount. What's really important is that we only need one milligram of iron through our mouth and we need 24 through the recycling system.
What's really important for people to understand is that there's an overabundance of attention on the dietary side. And no one talks about the recycling side. What's appreciated about Dr. Vanis openness to. Oh, oh, that makes so much more sense that, you know, that whole mechanism. And so people don't realize that this very sophisticated process of recycling the iron, as you said, got to get it from those red cells, red blood cells are broken down. Got to get it to the bone marrow. You can't do that without copper.
The recycling side is so critically dependent on cognitive. It's just a key part of how our body works.
It's in the research, it's just not in the classroom.
So what I discovered with.
And I'm working with a friend and neighbor who's just down the street, he's got a PhD in library science and informatics. Really talented guy. Got his PhD right a couple miles from here at UNC, which was at that time was, and I think it still is, the number one program in the country for this type of pursuit.
And he's my AI guy. I don't like to play with AI. I like to ask the questions in his computer. I'm gonna let him be the fall guy. And so what's important for PN is that there is this critical focus on the iron absorption at the front end to our diet. Gotta absorb that iron. Talks about the recycling system, and no one talks about the backside of the recycling is if you don't recycle it properly, as Dr. Ben has pointed out, it starts to accumulate. It'll accumulate all over the body. It'll start in the liver, it'll go to the endocrine glands, it'll go to the heart, the brain, the eyes, macular degeneration, neurodegeneration, iron, cardiac disease, iron. All of these conditions that we know about and we're being treated for. All have hidden history of iron dysregulation that accumulates very naturally as we age.
And the iron biologists have a very simple Take your age, multiply it times 365 and that's how many milligrams of iron you have in your body.
So I'm now 73 times 365. And it's a, it's a big five digit number. And men are designed for 5,000 milligrams of iron. So I have more than five times iron that I should have in my body. Women are designed for 4,000.
And again, all you got to do is take your age multiply times 365. It's not my formula. It's just Robert Crick, Jamie Collins, Douglas Kell, all these famous names. And iron research use that formula, but it's not shared in the classroom.
And so the question I asked of AI was please identify the top 10 reasons why iron accumulates. It's called the labile iron pool.
And they're good places to have iron. And they're not so good places. You want iron in your red blood cells, iron in your iron, sulfur cholesterol proteins, and they're all over the body, but inside the cell, a pool of available iron and it's called labile iron pool lip.
And when you look up the word labile, available, happy, free.
But in the scientific sense, in the clinical sense, it means reactive, highly reactive. And so I wanted to know what's causing this buildup of reactive iron in the, in the cell.
And it came back with a very specific list of reasons.
And as I looked at the list, I realized that five of the 10 reasons had a relationship to copper.
And what I would suggest is we change the name of the label iron pool to the reactive iron pool and use the initials rip, which also means rest, because that's really what ages us, is that reactive iron pool.
But it accumulates in our tissues, as Dr. Bannon has pointed out.
And I challenged AI, I said, you know, you've, you, you've overlooked the fact that these five components are copper dependent. And AI said, well, you're right, absolutely, yes. And then I, I, I, it came back with a response to explain why it said what it said. And I pushed a little and then said, well, if you want to look at it mechanistically, you're absolutely right. Copper is the driver in the body. It regulates iron.
And then at the, at the very end of the exchange, it gave three reasons why we don't have a copper centric model. You have with AI is an iron centric model.
So when you do a search, when you're asking a very probing question, it's causing me to have the symptom or whatever. What you're going to get back is a biased answer based on iron research and very little copper research.
So a balanced view. And what it, what it explained is that the main reason we don't have a copper centric model is well, historically iron came first and we're focusing on iron. Secondly, logistically, it's easier to measure iron than it is to measure copper.
Boy, that's a, that's a, that's a really response. And then third, it said, and conceptual inertia. I'd never seen that phrase before, conceptual inertia. Lawyers has never thought of it that way. And we're very resistant to change. And I think it was Niels Bohr who made a famous saying, famous statement many, many years ago. Science progresses one death at a time.
And so there's a lot of resistance to new ideas.
And so I think people to realize that what's running AI, what's running the training of doctors, what's running the training of nutritionists and related practitioners is an iron centric model.
We just have had it that way. We're just going to stick with it because it's familiar. It's, it's the classic case of the little girl asking her, why do you cut the end of the pot roast off?
And mom says, well, we've always done that. And the little girl said, why? And so they trace it back to the mother talked with the great grandmother, said why did we cut the end of the pot roast off? And the great grandmother laughs. And she said, well, when I was growing up, the pan was too small and so we would always cut the pot roast off. But now we have bigger pans, but we still do it that way.
And it's just, that's where we are and that, and it's not just met. This is true for fields of education, banking, legislative issues. You can, you can apply it anywhere. But the, but the fact of the matter is there is an inherent bias.
AI means artificial intelligence.
No, it means always incomplete, always iron centric, always an iceberg. Think of an iceberg. You see a little tip above the water. That's what AI will give you.
And there's this big bolus of knowledge that can access if you ask the right questions. You've got to know the right questions to ask to take it out of its conditioning and get it to a much more diverse amount of research. So I just, I think it's important for people to be mindful of this bias because they, that they're going to get all the full story when they go to AI and you're not, you're going to get the part of the story that the system wants you to know. It's been built into narrative and they're going to defend the narrative and it's just we have to break out of it. And that's what we did with this piece that I sent Dr. Ben. Is it very clearly capitulated? Says you're right, it should be copper centric. But because of the, the history and the logistics and just conceptual inertia, we're not going to go there. And that's really what we're battling. So it's been fascinating to discover that.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: Well, and, and it's a point to really, for the listeners to really consider because you mentioned in the email it's, it's not the, the quality or accuracy of the studies that AI was pulling from. It's quantity and there's just quantum. There's just so much on iron, iron, iron, iron, iron. But when you actually put all of it together, look at the quality and the accuracy and you have to synthesize it using your human mind.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:33] Speaker A: And it's whatever has been fed into this computer is like Morley said, you've got to know the right questions to ask.
And he did. And he got AI to give a completely different answer based off the type of questions. And I was telling Morley before we started the show remind me of JB Handley was on the show months ago and he did the exact same thing with AI asking not forget the exact question. But basically, does a childhood vaccine schedule cause autism? Is there or proof that it doesn't? One or the other. And it came back with no, it doesn't cause autism. And but JB had to start asking very specific questions on the exact. Each, each vaccine individually. And it. AI came back, oh no, there's no study on that one. There's no study on that one. There's no study on that one. And right all the way down to the point at the end, AI was actually apologizing for giving a wrong answer at the top.
And it, and it was actually saying, I can understand why you would never trust me again. What can I do to rebuild your trust? And I'm sorry, it was just the, a crazy conversation. But the point being you've got to know the questions to ask. So careful with AI can be a tool, but ultimately it's not going to give you the truth. It's going to, like Morley said, always incomplete.
So be careful.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: One of my clients taught me a way to start an AI.
She does it all the time. She gets great results. She says that you and I both know copper is the general regulating iron.
So when I ask you the question, I Want you to put it in the right context. And she gets back really good responses. There is a way you can front end the mechanism to prepare AI for the fact that you're going to ask a different kind of question, tap into a different range of research, and apparently it gets back some pretty impressive results. So I just think it's important for people to know that bias exists and then to the extent that we have just a couple minutes, kind of drop a bombshell and maybe at a later point we can go a little bit deeper or, or if people really want to hear more about it, please come to Denver because I am going to talk about this mechanism.
We talk about iron and you know, and as you're introducing, maybe there's more to the story and we've been led to believe that if we're fatigued, the answer is always iron. What the book is about is no, it's actually, it's a lack of copper. It's not regulating the iron.
I was seeing kidney disease. You know, I've studied the heart, I've studied the pancreas, I've studied the liver, I've studied the brain. A lot of time on the brain.
The placenta, I mean, these are amazing organs. The placenta is called the forgotten organ.
It's how important it is, but no one knows about it.
But I was drawn to the kidney because I literally stole an article that talked about the production of ceruloplasmin in the nephron. So there's a million nephrons in each kidney, a lot of other nephrons. And what do they do? They filter waste out of the fluid. They're trying to get rid of the waste matter, the excess protein and other matter.
And there's a section of the nephron called the glomerulus.
What is glomerulus? It's, it's actually Latin for little ball of yarn.
And so with the tissue surrounding this little yarn, which is blood vessels, capillaries that are being massaged and filtered are these cells that are making cerule.
This is a lot of iron going through, a lot of red blood cells going through the capillaries.
And those, they're called parietal cells. When those parietal cells start to hiccup and start to lose their copper and they can't make this, the level of iron starts to build in the kidney.
And in fact, they are so precise about. There is a break point.
Any disease, as you well know, there's five stages.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And they know the exact Level of ferroxidase activity that upstage and ferro oxidase activity is dropping as the stage of chronic kidney disease is rising.
So they know there is a relationship with iron status and kidney disease status.
It's one of the few fields of where they've drawn this very clear relationship between iron and the condition.
And so that, that really fascinated me and I get it, as I like to do and somehow came across an article that explained why this is happening.
And it turns out there's a metabolite that we produce in our gut that when we eat a lot of different types of meat acid called tryptophan, very important amino acid.
And when it's digested in the gut, depending the balance of the microbiome, if there's a prevalence of pathogenic bacteria, especially E. Coli, it will bring that tryptophan into what's called an indole.
And then the indole group goes to our liver and it becomes what's called indoxyl sulfate and it has the initials is indoxyl sulfate. And lo and behold, the level of indoxyl sulfate rises as each stage of kidney disease grows.
So there's an equal amount of indoxyl sulfate in the bloodstream that's ushering in the next stage of kidney disease.
Then when you start to pick at I'm discovering that well actually indoxyl sulfate is attached to all chronic disease.
There's a known correlation between indoxyl sulfate, autism, doxy sulfate, neurodegeneration, endoxal sulfate, cardiac cardiovascular disease, indoxal diabetes. And you begin to pull back the curtain and you find out that indoxyl sulfate, it's a harbinger of inflammation.
It has this massive effect of creating inflammation in the body body and creating oxidative stress and oxidative leads to fatigue because if you can't turn oxygen into water to release the energy, you're going to create oxidants ox that we talked about back many years ago in the early stages of of our conversations.
And so in doxyl sulfate also has an effect on iron status.
A particularly powerful effect on iron status. As in the indoxyl sulfate rises the iron hormone hepcidin, which we talked about a number of years ago and you were very quick to say I don't think people know what this is and many people don't know what it is, but it has a very powerful effect on stopping the iron recycling system.
Suddenly we have this mechanism that is the very metabolite that's causing a wind down of the recycling system, an accumulation of the iron in the tissue leading to a wide spectrum of chronic disease.
There's a blood test for it, there's a urine test for it, and there's a fecal test for it. But no one does the test, except if you're a nephrologist and you'll do it under certain conditions to assess how this particular patient is progressing with their condition.
And wow. And then you find out that in, in the field of nephrology, they use dialysis machines.
Well, a few years ago, there were like 4,000 dialysis machines in the country.
Now, a few Years later, there's 7,500.
The rate of dialysis is skyrocketing across the country, and it probably has to do with the excitement of the early 2020 time period, but we're not going to go there.
But the point there is a known impact of this indoxyl sulfate. And what I want to leave the audience on is why is the pathogenic bacteria rising in the body?
Well, one of the studies I found early on in my research, if you took a mammal and you exposed it to retinol in its diet, there was a tenfold of there's 10 times more lactobacillus in the digestive tract than there was E. Coli. There's always going to be some E. Coli in our system, but it needs to be kept in check by the other bacteria.
If you take that retinol out of the diet, it flips and suddenly there's 10 times more E. Coli in the digestive tract than there is lactobacillus.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:49:53] Speaker B: A big, big change.
Radical change.
And so again, people very regularly talk about dysbiosis, but they don't know that what we eat significantly affects that, that dynamic.
And because there's emphasis on iron absorption at the front end, as you noted, they're fortifying foods with iron. And they have since 1941, whatever is when they, when they refined the wheat to make the flour and they stripped the germ, the wheat germ off it and they took everything out and they said, well, we better add some iron back. That, that was the justification for the iron added back in 1941.
And so they didn't add that copper, but they added back iron. And so we've been exposed to a lot of iron fortified foods.
And then we're also told, oh, it's very important, ascorbic acid so that you can overcome the mucosal block to bypass the natural mechanism of slowing down the amount of iron that gets into the bloodstream. And when you put ascorbic acid into the mix, suddenly you have this influx of iron. And so one of my colleagues is a writer, and she's writing an article about the root cause protocol. And so she took the time to research an average days and how much iron she's exposed to.
And I was quite surprised. But she said when she added it all up, it was 84 milligrams of iron in her daily diet.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: Wow, 84 milligrams. Morley, you said we needed one milligram.
[00:51:41] Speaker B: In our diet earlier.
We need one. She's getting 84. And if. And the derivative estimates we absorb 10% of the iron that we're exposed to in our duodenum, the upper part of the thigh, in the small intestine. So let's just take that. That's 8 milligrams. So she's getting eight times more iron than she needs. Where's the 76 milligrams?
What goes to the colon where it's picked up?
Do you think that 76 milligrams might stir pathogenic bacteria? And lo and behold, it does. It's in the literature. When you have rising levels of iron in the diet, you are going to foster manic bacteria.
And so the challenge is to get people to realize that we do need iron. We do. We need amount through our mouth, but we need 95% is through the recycling system, which requires copper, which requires a whole new way of thinking how the body works. And if we don't do that, we're going to have a rising level of indoxyl sulfate.
And it can get worse because the indoxyl sulfate can get nitrated when it gets exposed to peroxy nitrate.
And big words in people's. Our eyes are glazing over. But the fact of the matter is it's not unusual to have these chemicals in our body. And no one's. The fact that our obsession with iron absorption at the front end, fear of becoming anemic, is in fact driving the microbiome to produce chemical that's creating the iron dysregulation that's linked to all of these different chronic conditions, it's just. Who knew? And so it's a fascinating process of connecting the dots that I plan to talk a little bit more about at the meeting. But I thought in particular would find it fascinating given just the sheer simplicity of the model and how it's. It's right here, hiding in plain sight. But nobody talks about it.
I've asked in the last two weeks since I've learned About anyone I am talking to. What do you know about indoxyl sulfate? I've talked to doctors, I've talked to, I've talked to research scientists, I've talked to clients, people who are really curious, they're good researchers. Not one person has ever heard of it.
Not one person. And so I think it's a hidden factor in our environment that I intend to spend more time talking about just to sensitize people. There is a reason why the symptoms arise. There is a reason why these conditions arise. There is no disease, but there is stress induced dysregulation. You knock out copper and magnesium and these other critical nutrients and you begin to destabilize energy production.
And then the immune system doesn't have its horsepower to keep people in a proper balance. So I just think it's a very important framework for people to realize that the body does have its natural intelligence, but it is thrown off by the environment that we live in. Particularly concerned about anemia, but not the iron accumulation in our tissue. Just a different perspective.
[00:55:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so cool to connect these dots on, on the research side, the intellectual side. But the beauty, even more beautiful part of it to me is the simplicity of all of this Chaos can be normalized when you focus on morally keeps talk or point to the poster on his for, for those just listening to the audio, not the video.
Morley's got a book called cure your fatigue. It's in its second edition, I think. Right Morley now?
Yep. So I'd recommend the book cure your fatigue. The root cause protocol is full of a number of stops and a number of starts. But in a nutshell, I'm going to tell you guys, it's these basic things getting back to the way your ancestors, your ancestors ate retinol. Morley just said if you eat retinol then your gut bacteria will thrive. The good ones, the good bacteria thrive with retinol and when you don't have it in your diet, it flips and E. Coli thrives. Well, where's retinol found? It's found in the ancestral diet, the saturated fats from animals. So real butter, heavy cream, organ meats, the egg yolks. This is where you're gonna. Cod liver oil.
That's the number one. I don't miss it every day. Cod liver oil, number one supplemental nutrient. Real food based supplemental nutrient to a diet that needs to be more ancestral, needs to be non processed. I don't eat extra iron. I get my iron from red meat. And guess what? The body will absorb that appropriately and when it has enough, it'll close that absorption down of that heme iron. And I don't eat the other iron. So there's a simplicity to the fix.
The fix is get back to how your great great great grandparents were. A lot of it is the food. But it's also other components that we talk about in the four pillars in the root cause protocol. But I recommend the book cure your fatigue. I was honored to write the forward for that. Morally, I'm honored to be at the conference again, guys, that's February, the end of February 28th and 29th. Is that the right 27th, 28th, Friday and Saturday, Aurora, Colorado Hyatt Regency. What's the website morally where people can find out more and get tickets and all that?
[00:57:38] Speaker B: Just the rootcall.com and then go to Resources and they'll have the the conference and it's called Ignite the innate healer.
[00:57:49] Speaker A: Root cause the the root cause protocol.com.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: The root cause protocol.com or the short referred option is rcp123.org and they could just Google Ignite the innate healer and they'll find it, I'm sure.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: Okay.
Awesome. Well, thank you, Morley. Sure appreciate all the time and effort you do to get into that research to help connect these dots to prove that intellectual mind that most Westerners need the science to prove things. So you bring that. So well, thank you for coming back to the show. Sure. Look forward to seeing you at the conference.
[00:58:27] Speaker B: Likewise. Thanks again for the chance to have this conversation and look forward to seeing you in Denver, right outside Denver. But look forward to people being able to take some time out of their schedules to find out what's really going on with this consistent ride in chronic disease. There's a reason for it and we tend to talk about it at length at the conference months. So look forward to.
[00:58:51] Speaker A: And one more practical thing I forgot to mention I'm into is blood donations. That's the way. Because people will always ask, well, how do we get rid of all this extra iron in our tissue? Just go down your local blood bank and go save a life.
[00:59:04] Speaker B: Two lives, Three, four lives. Three people benefit from the blood product who benefit from losing lowering your iron.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And the studies show people that donate routinely is their civic duty. They have better longevity outcomes. So go donate that blood when the blood bank calls you. And I recommend whole blood donation. They might try to get you to do some other things. Packed red blood cells, platelets, whatever. But whole blood is the best. Would you agree morely?
[00:59:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. 100. Yep.
[00:59:37] Speaker A: Yep. Okay, guys, so Morley's website rcp123.org check it out under Resources Ignite the Healer denver or aurora, colorado 2-27-28 and we will archive this show veritas wellness member.com check it out all of old Morley Podcast There's a plethora of knowledge and wisdom in those old podcasts with Morley, so check those out and we'll have this up there soon.
Any last word?
[01:00:08] Speaker B: Morley no, just be curious and ask for the rest of the story.
[01:00:17] Speaker A: There you go.
[01:00:18] Speaker B: Only going to get a limited response from AI and you're only going to get a limited response by most practitioners. Dr. Ben's a notable option. Most people don't take the time to really immerse themselves into what else could be explaining what's going on. It's important is more going, so encourage you to have that persistent curiosity to find out what it is.
[01:00:44] Speaker A: I would concur. There's always more to the story and we'll be back next week with another great show and more of the story. Thank you all for tuning in. We'll see you next time.
[01:00:53] Speaker B: Bye bye.
