Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of you're the Cure. Excited to have Jamie Winship back with us. If you don't know who that is, you need to go back and look on our archives on the website.
We've interviewed Jamie, I think, three times now. All three have been fantastic. But of course, Jamie's got his own website, identity exchange, and YouTube and social media highly recommend him. But the book, the newest book, the latest book, that's where we have Jamie back to talk about the War of World views. It's a great book. If you did not get the first book, Living Fearless, I highly recommend it.
You know, we all get caught up in a false identity. We believe lies about ourself. We believe lies about God when we walk in those lies, and that kind of thinking, it produces fruit in our life. That's not good.
And Living Fearless talks about a false identity versus true identity and the freedom you can walk in when you're walking in that true identity. It's so amazing. Highly recommend, that book. Those were the first interviews, but this book, too. In our podcast last week with Janet Newberry, Janet actually credited this book, this understanding of Empire versus Kingdom, as the key missing piece of her puzzle. She had her true identity. She'd known Jamie and Donna Winship's work for a long time, years, and had that piece. But there was something missing. And this book filled in that gap for Janet. And last week, she told her testimony of being completely physically healed by having that piece of the puzzle fall in. So y' all go listen to that if you didn't hear it. But this book is awesome. On page 57. And we may get into this here in a minute. The. The word mystery in Greek, I'm used 27 times. The first time where God gathers heaven and earth together.
But this thing about mystery, this uncertainty, and that's okay. It's good. We're going to see. That's a characteristic of the kingdom. The Empire loves certainty and predictability.
On page 61, talking about failure is actually learning an opportunity to learn from failure. Page 67, humans resist and struggle against God's desire to set us free.
We actually resist that.
And then further on, I'm just reading some highlights I wrote in the back of the book here, page 89 and 90, it talks about the six steps of empire collapse.
I think we're probably on step six right now in the U.S. we may get to that, too.
On page 188, five characteristics of highly resilient people. Page 190, the game plan of God, Incarnation Transfiguration, crucifixion, resurrection.
On page 196 it talks about the process flow. Everyone wants to know how do you actually do this process?
Page 197, all external conflict comes from.
Read the book to find out or we may get to that in the interview. And on page new 297, the key to everything.
It's a great book, highly recommend. We're going to jump into it. But before we do, real quick, why do we talk about these things on a health show? You're the cure. We usually talk about the mitochondria and healthy eating and exercise and sunshine and all the good things, all that's important. It's not either or. We're. We live in this physical world, in a physical body, but we're a spirit housed in the flesh with a soul. We need to know about all three. I had someone send me a CIA document last week. I wanted to read it right because partly Jamie's has some of his stories are associated with CIA type stuff. Thought he would enjoy this, but it's so pertinent to connect the dot between how our thoughts, our thought patterns and. Guys, when you think things you actually and you think them over and over and over, it creates a neural pattern. It's nerd called neuroplasticity. Your nerves are going to actually build this pattern where it becomes a predictable program and your body actually starts to predict how you're going to react based off these neural pathways that you created.
There's also called neural pruning. Your body goes in and prunes or kills the pathways you don't use.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: So if you've been walking in a A empire mindset for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, if you've been walking in your false identity mindset, those are deeply ingrained neural pathways and you've actually pruned the kingdom pathways. So we need to know this but real quick from the document then we'll, we'll get into the book. The document is titled Analysis and Assessment of Gateway Process.
It was a top secret document. It was declassified in 2003. If you want to go read this yourself, document ID is CIA RDP 96 00788R0017002100 165 from page 25 of this document, it quote, the human body is not a biochemical machine. It's a coherent electromagnetic field field that generates and sustains physical matter.
Now I'm reading a little commentary from an article that, that this person sent me.
You are not a Body that produces energy. You are energy that produces a body.
The CIA spent 18 years and $47 million confirming this through the gateway program at the Monroe Institute. They map the exact frequencies at which human consciousness interfaces with physical cellular structure. Their conclusion buried on page 25 of a document nobody was supposed to read.
Matter is a product of frequency.
Change the frequency, change the matter, change the matter, change the body.
The gateway research proved human cells emit biophotons, measurable light particles that carry information between cells faster than any chemical signal.
These biophotons operate on a coherent frequency identical to laser light.
When this coherent frequency is disrupted, cells lose communication with each other.
Loss of cellular communication is the only mechanism behind disease, aging, and organ failure.
Cancer is not a mutation. It's a cell that lost its frequency signal and stopped receiving instruction from the body's electromagnetic field. Aging does not get decay. It is a signal degradation over time. Death is not organ failure. It's complete loss of electromagnetic magnetic coherence. Okay, guys, that's the connection. You. Your thoughts impact that frequency. That's the key link here.
So, yes, there are physical laws in place. If you jump off a tall building, physical laws kick in.
We're not discounting that. We're not saying it's either or. But what we are saying what this many, many, many scientific articles say, not just this research project from the CIA, but your thought in impact the physical molecules in a profound way and in a way that an organic avocado cannot do.
In the. In a way that walking in sunshine and other things can't do. We need it all together. But the most important. Seek the kingdom first. The most important is your thought process.
And that's why we go to books like this.
God is absolutely revealing truth in this season to get us out of our purely left brain logical thinking.
And that's okay to think logically. They actually talked about that in that CIA document. The. The. He wrote it to this commander, but the guy writing it said, you know, this will hold up to your critical thinking. Left brain, critical thinking later, but let yourself go right brain for a minute.
And that's what Jamie talks about and teaches, too. So I just thought that was a really interesting article. Jamie, thank you for coming back on the show. Love the book. Highly recommend it. I don't know if you have any opening comments there, but I'll have questions on the book too. But welcome back. Thanks for joining.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm. I'm glad that I got to hear that intro. That's. That makes me want to like. Let's just go read that document and talk about that. That's really. I'm trying.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: I'll send it to you. Yeah, it's really cool.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: I was trying to write down the reference number and everything. That's really, really. I love that. Thoughts impact frequency matters. A product of frequency.
I. The. The whole statement.
Loss of cellular communication. It would. What did you say? Loss of cellular communication is the cause of disease? Is that what.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. When a cell can no longer communicate with the other cells around it, dysfunction starts to happen.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And that, I mean that's true among people as well.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: When they lose the.
The effective, healthy communication, the whole system begins to.
There's dysfunction that's created. So. Yeah. I love.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: I.
[00:09:11] Speaker B: That's. That's like. I can work off that all day today and forever probably. Thanks for that. I learned a lot already.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Well, it's helped me so much. This empire versus Kingdom and May. That's. Well where we will start. Maybe people need to know kind of the characteristics of each. But it. It came to my mind just this past week. My family and I went out to Southern California for a little beach vacation. They got an Airbnb on the beach is awesome. Well, there's a farmer's market one of these mornings right there on the beach. And we enjoyed that farmer's market. But one particular tent or, you know, booth I went to. Real sweet guy, probably almost 60. African American guy. And we just got to talking. I spent probably an hour. He grows sprouts. So we had broccoli sprouts, onion sprouts, all kinds of sprouts. And he was just feeding me these sprouts.
It was great. But we start. I mean, I spent an hour talking to him. He grew up in the Catholic religion, didn't give me all the detail, but walked away from that and found the Muslim world and Islam and Koran and. And he just starts downloading all this beautiful stuff actually from the Quran. Yeah. Which, you know, listening to you over the years, I've come to appreciate some things. But he talked about Jesus and what they believe about Jesus and just. But what was in my mind. And he did most of the talk and I just listene.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: And.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: But thinking, you know, in my old way of thinking, it would have. I would have judged. I would have had some thoughts, I would have categorized. I would have separated.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Even if I was polite in my, you know, cultural. Just being polite, standing there listening, in my heart and mind, I would have already separated. But now these characteristics, we're about to talk about. I automatically, I'll catch myself. No, that's Empire. That's Empire. That's Empire. Just like I used to do with my false identity. No, that's me trying to be right instead of connect the dots. So you, you learn to catch your. Yourself. And that's that re.
Neuroplasticity thing. You're rewiring your brain. Right. So that's maybe what we can talk about. But let's jump in on the. Maybe the characteristics. Where'd you come up with this kingdom versus Empire?
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's, it's like it gets a good segue because when as the, as the person you're talking to, the, the guy in the booth, I, I mean, it's so interesting that he moved from Catholicism to, you know, Islam. I would love to hear that journey. I would love to hear that process that he went through. But when. So when you're talking to him, just like you said that, that him saying, you know, I was Catholic and I moved into Islamic, whatever it can produce in the person listening who's, if you're evangelical or Christian, fear, like, it's like a threat. Suddenly this guy has become a threat to like, what I believe and what I think.
And the tendency there because of the threat suddenly is fear. And as you said, then the temptation is to separate for, to like, to distance yourself from that person and to lose the connection and the communication. That's possible that could happen.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:20] Speaker B: And that. And so everything that you're saying is once you have that distortion in communication or the loss of communication, then the dysfunction begins. Like, what am I going to do with this guy now that he's a threat to me or how I think.
And so our journey into like, understanding worldview would help me say about that person.
It's not that his. It's not that he's Muslim and I'm Christian. It's that it's like what worldview greater than all that are we in. That allows me either to continue to communicate with him or to separate from him. And he's now an adversary to me like that. So in our years in our work, you know, in the police department and in overseas, we, we learned pretty early on about how important identity is. We started to realize through different things people said to us, different experiences we had, how the way people were identifying themselves was actually causing separation. It was creating. We were, we were. We weren't really saying who we really are. At a deep level, especially if you're a Christ follower and believe that you are Knit together in your mother's womb with an identity. Like scripture says that all of us have value and identity and inherent worth because God created us.
We weren't identifying ourselves in those ways. We're identifying ourselves more by group names or team names.
And as soon as I name a team, then I create separation in the room. So, I mean, it was funny because I just. We just did this thing talking to the NFL, to coaches in the NFL, and. And when they were in the room all together, all 32 teams, coaches from all 32 teams were in the room. They rarely talked about what team they coached in all that. They're pretty interesting discussions about the league and all that.
But they avoided saying, you know, I'm with the Dallas Cowboys or whatever, because when they would say that, it would cause this kind of tremor through the room.
You know, different because of the competitive nature of the jobs, actually, not even the games, but the jobs.
And so.
And so they. So they would talk about themselves.
But if I said, like, when I went up there to speak, if I said, you know, I was born in D.C. and I'm here to help anyone, but specifically I'm here to help the Washington commanders, that's what I said to start it.
I said, I don't want to really help any teams that play against my team. And they all laughed and joked. But that's exactly what we do. That's exactly how we talk. Whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat or a Christian or an evangelical, we. We advocate for a team.
And as soon as I say that, even joking, it creates. It fractures the room that I'm in.
So we started working on the whole idea of identity. Well, how do you understand identity? As I said to a group of CEOs yesterday in the great book what's My why? By Simon Sinek, before you ask what's my why? You need to understand what's my I.
Because being informs doing. Being informs doing.
And we were always addressing the doing of people and not the being that informed the doing. So we do behavior modification or, you know, moral reform or something like that. That's always addressed at the behavior level without really going to like, well, why are they behaving that way? What? You know, even as a police officer, like, we're going to go in and we're going to enforce behavior modification on this community, but it doesn't stop crime.
Like, that doesn't stop crime because you're not addressing the source of the behavior. Where's the behavior coming from? Which turns out to be what does the person believe about themselves really, basically, what do they believe about God? What do they believe about themselves and what do they believe about others? We started just recognizing that, well, why do you have to self protect and self promote all the time? Because their view of God was either that God wasn't there or God doesn't really help.
So really, even though I have a sense of God or believe in God, really deep down I believe about myself that everything depends on me. That's pretty much what I believe. And so God's sort of there. But ultimately I have to self protect and self promote because God's not going to protect me. So that view of God was really important.
Even if the person considered themselves atheistic or whatever. My question would be like, do you believe the universe is for you or against you? Are you born into a war of fighting? The universe, you know, is the ground. Suddenly your enemy is childbirth now your enemy and raising kids now a war or a conflict.
And, and so how do you view yourself in this? What's your view of God? So we started working on identity and realizing that most people have a wrong view of God, a wrong view of themselves, and definitely a wrong view of who's your neighbor. So it's, it's the great commandment. So you come back to the great commandment and it makes perfect sense why Jesus would say the greatest commandment. Again, it doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not. The greatest.
The most important thing to get worked out truthfully in your life is who is God. And to love a right view of God with everything that you have and who are you and to learn to love and accept a right view of who you really are in order that you can rightly understand and love your neighbor. Like those are the greatest relational, communicative relationships that you're ever gonna have.
And if you get that, everything else, all the law, all the everything else comes underneath that.
And so then when you look at, well, what is lie based thinking? It's just the inverse of that. It's a wrong view of God. God's a God that's for my team. Only that kind of God. Or God's a God that demands constant payment.
He demands constant payment so that he's not mad at you. A wrong view of God leads to a wrong view of myself. Well, what does God think of you? Or what does the universe think of you?
I ask people a lot, especially men, okay, we're talking about parenting or, or marriage. Okay, look at Jesus right now. He's right here with you look in his face and ask him, what does he think of you as a parent?
And they don't want to do it.
They're afraid to ask Jesus that question. And I'm say, why? Because.
Because they believe he's going to condemn them, that he's going to say, you're an awful parent. Like, you don't pray enough, you don't witness enough, you don't have devotions with the family. That he's going to accuse me of being a bad parent or a bad spouse. Like that's what Jesus is going to do. And so we resist the actual deep relationship, the deep abiding, because we're afraid it's going to lead to fear, guilt and shame, which is as far from scripture as you can get, right? And so then you have a wrong view of yourself. So you have a wrong view of what God would say. Or do you have a wrong view of yourself? And then, so then what about my neighbor? So you know, you can't give away what you don't have. Wounded people, wound people, fearful people, all are always involved in conflict. So that's all on the identity level. So we started just simply working on what if I believed about myself what God said about me. What if I really believed about myself what God said about me and not what the enemy said about me or the world said about me or my dad said about me in some wounded condition, or my teacher.
What if I really believed what the one who created me said about me and I. And I had a right view of God.
So righteousness is to believe what God believes about you. That's considered Abraham believe in hope against hope. Abraham believed what God said about you are your identity is the father of nations.
But I don't have any kids.
So he believed, he put his faith in, even in his physical condition, what God said about it, not what it looked like in Hope against hope. He believed and it was credited to him as righteousness because his thinking was right. It was in line with the truth of what God said about him and about his wife, right? And so if he doesn't believe that his wife is in fact capable of being who God says she is, the mother of nations, the then he'll go find another plan to try and make that thing work out. Which, you know, we see in the difficulty that's created in that story. Even though God weaves everything together beautifully, it's still the human's attempt to get to happen what they think is supposed to happen, which leads to all sorts of conflict.
So the Goal is to be able to go to God and go to Christ and say, what do you say about me? Who do you say that I am? Here's what I believe about myself. Here's what the world believes about me. Unfortunately, here's what the enemy says about me. All of which seems true to me.
You're not good enough. You're not a good parent, you're not a good spouse. You're. You're, you know, you're inadequate in life. All of these things, those are easy to believe because it doesn't require any faith to believe any of that stuff. Just like you're not a good person. Okay, I. I get that. I totally get that. And then to. But then to believe what the Lord says about you takes faith. It takes incredible faith to believe.
As Gideon, you're. You're a mighty man of valor. I'm hiding in a cave. Like, that's what I do every day. I hide and cower in a cave. And you're telling me I'm a mighty man of valor? Like, that's, that's hard for me to believe.
And it's easy for me to believe. I'm not a leader and I'm a coward. It's easy because look at the facts of my life.
And so, so to, to come out of, you know, the cave and to be. Become a mighty man of valor, which he always was, requires Gideon to believe about himself what the angel of the Lord, what Christ is saying about him. So it's the most. It's the most. It's the good news.
Like, you don't have to live in the false anymore.
You can be who God says you are, and you can be fully become that at higher and higher levels.
So that was the identity piece. And when we started to do that in our own lives, because you can't give away what you don't have, you will give away what you think about yourself. If you think that you're a loser, then you'll compensate for that. If you think you're inadequate, you either become an overachiever or you just give up.
Both are unhealthy.
But so, like, then a right view of yourself, a balanced view of, like, what does God say about me? And we started to. I actually watched the transformation in my wife. First because I was, I. I was doubtful of the whole thing. I thought it was spooky.
But then I watched it in her. And then I started going back and reading through the scriptures and how important identity is to God.
A right identity. What's the identity Of God.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: What's the identity of Adam and Eve? What's the identity of the enemy? Like, like that's a big deal, that we are who God says we are. And then, so then I started asking God, what are things I believe about myself that you never said?
Wow, that's a long list.
What are things I believe about myself that you never said? What are things I'm doing in my life that you never invited me into?
That's why this thing is so hard and so frustrating and so discouraging.
And then confession, truth telling, this is what I believe about myself. Repentance, then letting God tell you what he says about you and transformation is then walking in what he says about you. And so we were doing, practicing that, and then instead of talking to Muslims as Muslims, we started talking to them as, who did God make you to be? You're born in a Muslim family in a Muslim culture. We get that.
But that does. That's not your identity.
So who are you? And they. That question to people is really intriguing to people like, who do you. Who are you? I'm a police officer. That's a vocation.
I'm a parent. That's a role. Who are you? There's like a million parents, who are you?
Who, who, who are you uniquely? And people like, I don't, we don't. I don't know.
So then that means you're getting your identity from all the wrong sorts of places. So we started doing that with people and then just simply asking God, lord, who help them understand who you say they are.
And it causes you really, when, when God starts to speak identity into you. I mean, read the whole Bible. It's astounding to people what he says about them.
Like, they're astounded by it. And it's like they can't even receive it at so high level.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: He.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: He doesn't come up to people and say, you know, you're the worst person I ever created. He never, he doesn't talk like that. Or, I made you pretty inadequate. It's like you're, you're greater than you could ever imagine. But you can't do it separate from me.
Like, I have to be the one involved in causing you to understand and believe and walking you into places where that true identity can really grow.
Beautiful. We saw people transformed. We saw Muslims come to faith. We saw, we saw believers transformed by Christian people. All, everything. And then when you're praying with a person that considers themselves an atheist, it's like it doesn't matter what they Call themselves. It doesn't matter. Like, you don't disconnect because they name themselves part of a team you don't like or you're against. It's like that's. They're just, they're just saying where they get their identity from. You know, I'm a Blood or I'm a Crip or I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat. It's all. They're all just gangs that operate in fear.
And so, so they would be, you know, we would see that transformation and the identity transformation created behavior modification. Like it organically caused behavior modification.
And, and so we'd watch that happen and we'd see the transform and it's beautiful.
But then we would still see, like, yeah, but after a while, there's still this temptation to revert back into the old, to go back to the fear, to go back to the attempts at control and self protection and self promotion.
And so we kept asking the Lord like, okay, because God wants us to ask questions. He wants us to come to him and ask questions.
And we started asking the question, what? There's another part that we don't. There's identity. We get it, we see it now. We see it in scripture pretty clearly, how naming is so important to the Lord and what names mean and how he created you. And we started asking like, okay, so they understand identity now. Why are they. Why are they struggling as they go further into life? And again, just praying and reading reports like, you just read. Like, I don't know, Christians think you just got to read a Christian book, but it's like, read everything. Read medical books, read psychology books, read social. Like, when you go after a question with the Lord, don't tell him what avenue he has to answer it.
Like, ask the whole universe. He can talk any way he wants to talk to you, so don't tell him. Who has to be the spokesperson for his truth.
Just ask and seek and knock and, and pay attention to everything.
There's a lot. Just because I remember telling my kids, just because your biology teacher believes in evolution doesn't mean they're stupid.
Right? They, they're super. They're very, very smart.
They may not know everything you know or believe everything, but it doesn't mean they're dumb. And don't talk to them like they are. Like there's something wrong with them. There's not.
So we can learn from everyone. And so, yeah, I just started listening to podcasts and prayed and fasted, reading the scriptures. What are we not seeing? What do you want us to know, Lord, what do you want us to do? And then just. I was listening to an economics. A podcast by an economist and talking about a lot of the stuff that you talk about, Ben, and. And he said humanity is working with a. With what he called the wound of separation.
And I was like, oh, my gosh, what is that? So, like, sin. I know, but he's talking about it from an economic position.
If you form an economic policy from the wound of separation, it looks like this, and it doesn't work.
And so when I read his book on economic theory, and then I started. I read the history of economic theory from the church fathers, and we kept. And then we realized that they're talking about. You're just the whole. Your world view. Like, you're just your view of the whole thing.
What's the lens through which you see the world?
And lots of writers have written about worldview, you know, and so I would start asking people, like, what's your worldview? And most people don't really know what it is, but they would say, you know, conservative or progressive or Christian or Islamic or biblical or.
But those are the result of worldview.
Those. Those categories are the result of worldview. Because if I say I have a biblical worldview, it's like, which biblical worldview do you have? Because biblical worldviews have been killing each other for a long time. Yeah, which biblical worldview do you have? And then I would ask the question, if I asked Jesus what his worldview is, what would he say? Or Moses. Moses wouldn't say, I have a biblical worldview. They wouldn't say, we have a Christian worldview.
What would. What would they have said? What would. Especially Moses, because that's where we began. Well, let's start in Genesis, and then let's. Let's work through Genesis, because Moses is introducing the world to a population of slaves. He's telling them where they're from, basically, how did we get to where we are today?
How did we end up in bondage? Like, what's the story? And Moses is. If you can keep this in your mind, he's telling of the story of how we got to right here from the very beginning. How did we get to right here, this particular group of people? And when you read it that way. And the beauty of Scriptures, there's so many ways to look at Scripture. It's so deep and rich and incredible.
But when you read it from the perspective of Moses is talking to a group of people whose worldview has been shaped by Egypt, basically. So Their worldview, even though they're Hebrew and they have some kind of distant history that they're from, for centuries, their worldview has been formed by the situation that they're in. And the power that rules the world is Egypt. And so their worldview, if you're asking them like, what's your identity? They. They say it, we're grasshoppers. Even after everything they go through, they still end up at the grasshopper identity.
We're powerless. We're grasshoppers in our own eyes. They say, who? How did you come up with that? You're grasshoppers? Because look at the world that we live in.
Like, we've never been more than grasshoppers, even though we've watched God do amazing things, you know, through the Red Sea and through the journey, that whole generation could not get out of the grasshopper identity. Worldview. So what's the worldview that shaped them?
And what's my world? What's the lens through which I see the world when I go to read the Bible, what's the lens I'm reading it through?
Because the Bible, you're going to read the Bible through a certain lens. That's why some people can use it to kill their neighbor, and some people use it and say, I could never even kill my enemy.
Both of those are biblical worldviews, but they're different worldviews of the same book.
Yeah, right.
And so that we started just like, what is worldview and what's the lens through which we see the world? And reading Genesis, but also reading writers on worldview from anthropology and sociology and economic theory, and just realizing that there's only ever really been two worldviews, whatever you call them, there's only really ever been two positions on worldview.
And Augustine called it the city of God versus the city of man, or the Ptolemy, or one of them called it like this, the worldview of love and the world view of evil. It's like there's these two competing worldviews, not nine different ones, or there's two and they compete against one. They're in conflict.
And so in scripture, you start to see it and Moses starts talking about it. And what, what we ended up, the terms we used was there's a worldview that's built on connection, and then there's a worldview that's built on separation. That the goal of life is, is either connection or it's separation. That that's how we view everything.
So then, okay, so then if I. And so the. The scriptures actually start quite heavily In a connected worldview, you very, very much God is with us. God's never been disconnected. God's never been a brooding, distant, separate God up in the heavens, ever. God has only been in connection, in relationship with himself, Father, Son and spirit and humanity. God has never been separate. Never, never been separate. God can't be separate.
All the way back to talking about frequency and consciousness is like those things can't be put off somewhere separate. They're, they're, they are, they're every part of everything.
And so the whole world is connected. And basically the instruction to Adam and Eve is in this very beautiful, interconnected world.
The worst thing you can do is separate in it. That's called sin, is to separate.
Don't disconnect. Whatever you do, do not disconnect from God.
Do not disconnect from yourself and do not disconnect from each other. And do not disconnect from creation itself.
Because what you'll end up doing is going to war against all of it.
And in the war that you engage in is going to kill you. And not only will it not resolve things, it'll create more and more conflict, more and more disease instead of staying connected with the whole system that's built to heal and to grow. And it's for life.
You know, nature is for life. It's not against it, it's for it. And nature will do anything to promote more life. It'll sacrifice itself to create more life, which is the God who made it.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: It's the image of the God who created, created. It is other focused, self emptying, unconditional love, even for the weeds, even for your enemy. That's the connected worldview. And that's how humanity originally was designed, is to be in connection with all things. And so then when you go to and that's Genesis 1 and 2, then when you get to 3, you see the introduction of the separation worldview.
So the, the connection worldview. If you could talk to Adam and Eve or even ask Moses, like how he's describing it from his revelation from God is, is the connected worldview. There's no sense of lack in the connected worldview. No one's going around, we're missing something we don't have. The whole sense is, wow, there's everything we need right here. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. Like, that's, that's what it is. It's like there's no lack in this thing.
And, and, and so, so we don't have to like get up in the morning going, wow, how are we going to take care of ourselves? Like, what are we going to do?
There's no fear in it. Which I want to say something about the US currently when talking about that, but I'll try and remember to come back. There's no, there's no fear in it. There's no guilt in it. There's no shame in it. We don't need clothes. Like, we don't need any. We, we have everything that we need. And it's all beautiful. It's all good, it's all beautiful. Everything.
There's no comparison. You know, there's no transactional performance there. We're not the, we're not the, our identity doesn't come from what we produce.
Like, none of that's present.
It's all just this. And it's all right here. And we have enough. There's enough for everyone to have enough. And then it's all mysterious. I, I, I, it's like if, if God's walking around in the garden with them and saying, see that name? That, what is the name of that name, that thing? And they, and Adam and Eve start naming things like God there they can identify and name things, give names to things and identity. And they're looking at a tree and, and the Lord's like, okay, that tree is a whole universe unto itself.
Like you, you'll start thinking, well, there's bark and then there's leave. But oh, you don't know what's there.
You will be trying to figure out how that thing works forever. And every time you think you understand what it is, there's deeper mystery in it. Like, like that. And, and he's saying, go find it, go discover it. He, the human is, the human has the biology of transcendence. Like that's our biology. It's always going up and out to connect, to, to discover, to, to, to. We love mystery because mystery makes us get up, it makes us think, it makes us question.
And then I, I just can imagine like he's, he's pointing up into the stars and he's like, what are you gonna call that? And, and planets? And then he's gonna, and then no bird flies by and he's like, listen, I want, I figure out how you can do what that bird does.
Figure out if you can fly like that bird. And then when you figure that out, go to that planet.
Like you have the capacity to do this.
You are, you have the capacity to co create with me at unimaginable levels because you're going to think those things up There are gods or something. They're not, but. But they're mystery. And guess how far that mystery goes. It goes on forever. Every mystery goes on forever.
[00:39:43] Speaker A: But.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: But in knowable parts you can know it and then realize, oh my gosh, there's more. So there's the mystery of the heavens. There's the. There's the mystery of.
Look inside this heart that I gave you. Look inside this temple that I've given you. Try and figure out what this is.
How does this brain work? Like, try and discover the mystery of that. What is the spirit? What is the soul? Who are you?
Endless journey and then, and then points to Eve. Who is that other?
Discover who's the other.
Like, what do you know about them? How do you learn to communicate? Well, like, what's the other? So you have this up in out endless journey and then you can see the identities that. Well, then now we have cardiologists and we have bio. They're all looking in that group. And then you have theologians and astrophysicists. They're all the identities that are up here.
And then you have psychology and anthropology studying the other.
All these beautiful investigations that have turned into these giant sciences and searches and.
And it's so incredible. Don't disconnect. Whatever you do, don't disconnect from the other. Because if you disconnect, you'll. You won't know and it'll create fear and separation. So, so it's connection. And if there's enough and it's mystery. And as you discover things about the tree, you're going to come up with ideas and you're going to realize that was wrong, that was incorrect.
That's the part of going into mystery. It's like, don't be afraid to be wrong.
It's funny, you know, when you're reading like the book of Revelation, I think it is in. John is saying, I see that. And the angel corrects him three different times. Like, that's actually not what that is. Even in Revelation, he's like, nope, that's wrong. Because he's trying, like, the whole thing's a giant mystery to him. He's trying to explain what it is. And what he thinks is like, that's actually incorrect. What it is is this. And so don't think that as you're going along the way, when you're incorrect about something, that that's bad. That just. That makes. Keeps you humble. It keeps you hungry. It keeps you asking God questions like, how do we understand this? What is this?
Like that. And you don't get arrogant and think you're the God and you know all things, especially when you're exploring the nature of God. Don't think you know it, don't think you get it.
It's a mystery. So failure is learning. And then in that whole process of staying connected, you have to be other focused because you can investigate the mystery by yourself. You have to have others with you. You have to do it together and manage this and protect it and honor it and, and protect it from deception and the liar and all that. That's the connected worldview. The separation worldview you see in Genesis 3 is when Eve is interacting with the lie, the liar, and this is the danger.
And the liar introduces the idea that she's missing, that there's scarcity and that somehow God might not be as good as she thinks.
That maybe God is not only withholding from her, but if that she violates it, he's going to kill her.
So this beautiful, connected, loving God turns into Be. Well, he's a little bit distant. He doesn't provide everything. Then if you break his law, he'll kill you. If you, if we even touch it, he'll kill us. We're gonna die not understanding what the death meant, any of that stuff. And so you see her develop this view of God. Like maybe God's not connected fully to me or I'm to him or something and I'm lacking something and, and he's not going to give it to me, so I' to go get it. And so the scarcity leads to the search for certainty. I've got to be certain that I have all this worked out myself.
Right. Which leads to a kind of sense of like, well, we've got to be perfect. Like we can't fail because failure means something's wrong with you. And failure becomes not an act of things didn't go as expected. It becomes an identity. You are a failure, you have failed. You're which. Which is a violation of our own identity then, which leads to self protection and self promotion. So we end up with these two worldviews, right?
Right in the beginning and the alternative. The question is which worldview? Which lens are you going to look at the world through?
And 99. You know this, this is, this is back down to the, the loss of communication, the loss of connection creates dysfunction. That is the rule across the whole thing. It's all always been the rule.
And so the soul that separates it will die.
That's what the, that's what it means. It will. And God is Like, if you separate from me and yourself and others, you're gonna. It'll lead to death. That's what it'll lead to.
And so 99.9% of the world, whatever they. Whatever identity they call themselves, they're operating in a separation worldview. So even a person who understands, oh, I know who I am in the kingdom, I understand my identity. But then we function in a separation worldview. It's like taking a healthy fish and dropping it in a toxic pond.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:59] Speaker B: Knows its identity. It knows everything about how to be a trout. It's an expert in it. Got it. I know who the predators are. I know the food I'm supposed to eat. But you drop it in a toxic pond or water, it doesn't know what's killing it. But killing it is what it's breathing in every day.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: And so you.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: True identity and drop it in a separation worldview, it will slowly die.
Right. Unless it recognizes where is the toxicity coming from, you know? And so again, you deal with this all the time. Like, what is making me sick? I don't even know.
I'm using all these medications and all these coping mechanisms to try and function in this place.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Poison.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: It's not going to. It doesn't work.
You could be being made well by the whole thing.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: If you were actually connected from it and not at war with the weather, at war with the ground, at war with disease, at war with your neighbor.
We just went to war in the whole thing. And everything be, you know, work turns to labor and having kids turns to like, this is going to be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life is to try and have. And Cain and Abel come on the scene and boy, you talk about pain and childbearing.
There it is. There it is. Yeah. And so that's how we came into the whole worldview thing. And that's why it's so important. Before I talk to you about anything, let's talk about the lens through which you're going to see this.
And that's how we started.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
And then corporately, if we're all doing this, you know, I'd say corporately, even all the way to a nation. Because part of the book, you talk about the six steps of an empire collapse. The age.
Step one, the age of pioneers, number two, the age of conquest, number three, the age of commerce.
And then the age of affluence, and then the age of intellect.
And lastly, the age of death decadence.
Could you. We've got maybe 15 minutes left to me. It's the hardest thing in the world. It seems like we've. Well, I mean religion definitely separates. There's 40, 000 Christian denominations. I think last I looked just between religion and politics and you've mentioned Republican versus Democrat and then well now there's libertarians are, are just people are seeing a lot of people now seeing that's the same coin, other side of the same coin kind of deal.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:36] Speaker A: And especially understanding worldview you can clearly see that I would say but speak a little bit corporately to where we're at in, in those six parts of an empire and then maybe solution wise you know because people are desperate for solution. They're seeing all the craziness and some people accidentally look into a political figure party and if we just vote ourselves out, we're, we're not going to vote ourselves out. There's an old thing. No, you can't speak to that as a corporate and as a nation a little bit without obviously causing trying I mean just the topical cause separation. So it's a tricky thing to answer.
[00:48:14] Speaker B: Well so I mean so like, like I did this in the book, you know. So in the Old Testament sort of basically at the beginning it's Moses versus Pharaoh. Like that's the there, that's the kingdom versus the empire. Moses versus Pharaoh. The thinking, the thinking of Moses, what he's bringing, what he's explaining as the reality of the world versus the, the Pharaoh, the empire worldview. It's like we're here to dominate the world. We're here to be the most powerful empire in the world and we're going to subjugate everyone around us to our good. That's the empire.
And the, the Moses style of governance is like we're not Israel. The new nation is going to be a nation that doesn't rule the world, that influences the world towards kingdom doesn't want to, it doesn't want to be an empire. It's built to not be an empire. Because Jesus, when you see Jesus versus Caesar, you're seeing the same struggle. Jesus didn't come to be served, Caesar comes to be served.
Jesus if you can imagine the Christ doesn't come to be served, but to serve.
So what if a nation's goal is to serve the world?
Not rule the world, serve the world.
And so how, what kind of leadership would that require?
So when Jesus is on the scene and this is the, this is what he's, he's proclaiming the good news of the kingdom. He's, he's, he's the Opposite of Caesar, Caesar Augustus Caesar comes in at the time of Jesus's birth. Their birth announcements, I say in the book, are almost identical. They're both the sons of God. They're both going to liberate the world, all that. But this, what Caesar does is comes in and he divides the world up in the census. He divides them up into ethnic groups. He creates separation immediately.
And the reason he does that is so that he can tax them and conscript them into the military to build empire. So he separates, he puts them in debt and then he employs them into, or conscripts them into the expansion of his empire.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:50:31] Speaker B: What Jesus does is he comes in and he knocks down the dividing wall between the two and makes the groups one. So he brings unity to all people. He cancels debt and he creates peace.
He's the exact counter to Caesar.
And so, and he does it without an army, without political power. He doesn't use the empire tactics to fight the empire. This is always our mistake. So Moses, when he kills the Hebrew task, I mean the Egyptian taskmaster, he's using empire tactics to try and liberate one of his people. And all it does is creates fear in him as separation.
He doesn't know how to use kingdom to bring liberation. So Jesus is demonstrating the way kingdom gets rid of occupation and brings freedom is by serving and dying for your enemy.
So who comes against that?
The greatest military in the world, Rome, and the greatest religion in the world, Judaism, joined forces to shut that down.
So that's the political.
It's not like the empire's against him, but the religions for him, they're both against this idea because they're both empires. Yeah, religion is an empire and the, the atheistic pagan, our empire. But those empires are still the same separation, worldview, working together.
So even so, we would say they're both lost, but they're on different sides of the paradigm, but they're in the same separation paradigm.
[00:52:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: And so you can't get out of it. And so, so in our, the decline of empire, those six steps, the la, the turning point in that is the view of education or the view of learning. The view is the beginning of the decline. And it's when education switches from, wait, how do we know what we know epistemology to how do we get jobs that make the most money.
So education has already moved that way in our country. A while ago it shifted. Like, I'm not going to school to be like a service person, you know, a service class person. I'm, I'm going To, like, make as much money as I can.
And so your service, the idea of public service becomes like, you didn't make it.
Like, you failed. Like, what's your job? I'm a teacher. Public school teacher. Oh, I'm really sorry. I hope you get out of that soon. And so people lose. People lose.
The idea of, like, public service or serving the world becomes not as important as, like, ruling the world or being the millionaire or the billionaire.
And so, so that's the turning point. And then it goes down in the last.
We go for celebrity leadership. That's what countries do. And even in 9th century Assyria, the philosophers of the day were saying, we're using sports and entertainment to distract our country from the reality of the problems that we're having. And our leaders are now celebrities and, And. And famous people like that.
So, I mean, that's right where we are. That's. That's right where we are. And so how do you turn that around? You do exactly what you're. What you're doing. You start a small island of sanity in the midst of the insanity. You start a. A creative minority is. Is toy and beast. And Jonathan Sark's idea of it, Islands of sanity created minorities, small groups, house, church. Just like in Acts. You don't. You don't fight the empire with the tools of the empire. We fight it with spiritual weapons. And what do you do? You show healing, right? Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy and make people well.
So what you do is you.
[00:54:24] Speaker A: You.
[00:54:24] Speaker B: You start a small community that fights the lies that we believe.
They fight. They expose the lies that we believe. I'm not enough. I don't have enough. I've got to protect myself. Myself. That person's my enemy.
I've got to stay separate. You, you fight those lies and with demonstrations of connection and mystery and. And those things so that the world can look at you in their desperation and lostness. And you're like what Paul says in Philippians. You guys are lights that shine in the dark.
Like, it's so dark, but there's a light right there. There's one light. And they will move towards the light. As we lift Christ up, he draws people. And so we, we believers have to, like, we have to insist and commit to connection with the world and the lost. Just like your example with the guy in the booth. It's perfect. It's not a fight.
He believes certain things. Like what. What does he believe that's true and not true? Like, let's talk about what's true.
And, and, and what unites us and what holds us to guilt together and build bridges of trust that can bear the weight of truth. Truth. But we've got to have those connection points instead of just distancing ourselves from everyone we don't like.
So that's how you do it. Just in small groups, small communities. And like, I love it in your testimony when you moved away from the corporate empire thing. It's hard, it's risky because the empire reacts immediately against it pretty strongly.
But God's able, God's able to sustain what we do. And you move away and people start to realize, wow, these guys are not crazy. Like they're actually, they're actually healthy. They're actually like joyful.
Like there is a way to have hope. We didn't know that you could have hope. You can.
And so that's, that's. And that become. We become witnesses to what's true.
That's really. I mean I just did it this morning with some folks here in our own town. This is. That are asking like, what can we do? And I'm like, we can do it or we can start right here, right now that you know, the three of us, you know, and do it that way. So that's. Yeah. Get in a small group, get in your family, get in your neighborhood, in your vocation. Just start there. Like what? Asking other, I was asking other cops like, what are you afraid of? Let's work on the fear. Like, let's work on the fear on the job.
And just these little groups start to form and. But you become actually really better police officers.
[00:56:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:54] Speaker B: The empire doesn't run over you. They don't. You, they're afraid of you. Because, because greater is he that is in me than he's in the world. And it's actually becomes pretty exciting.
It is costly. It is costly. And you, you get a lot of bad press from the empire.
Yeah, here we are. We're still here.
[00:57:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
It is exciting, but it takes trust. It takes belief in that invisible word like Abraham.
So you really, I think start there, you got to wrestle through what is it? And that's what the first book, Living Fearless, asking those questions, you know, what is, what is it that I'm so scared of? What is it that I believe about God that's not true. Because ultimately those things are what's going to keep me from trusting.
So guys just recognize when you're walking in fear, scarcity or lack certainty, comfort, self protection, self promotion type stuff, all that separation, worldview and Just recognize that number one. But then start that relational dialogue with God about it. I mean, there's reasons you believe this way. I mean we're born into this culture this way.
We've got to rewire those neural pathways. I talked about the top of the show. It's. It really, I mean it's, it's an autopilot or that autopilot reaction, man. If it could be Kingdom which is love and enough and the mystery and don't be afraid of failure and you're going to end up loving your neighbor as much as you love yourself. It's a self sacrificial thing. You're not scared of your neighbor.
[00:58:31] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:58:32] Speaker A: It's beautiful. And, and that's the answer. That's how we overcome all the crazy chaos in the world that people are so freaking out about.
It's pretty simple actually. So it's awesome.
[00:58:44] Speaker B: And it, and it, and it can be done and it works. And it's worked. It's worked through the centuries. Yeah, we forget it, but we need to go back to it.
[00:58:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:55] Speaker A: Well, Jamie, thank you. I know you're a super busy man helping lots of folks see the truth. I appreciate you carving out an hour. Guys get the book, the war of world views and Jamie, I know y' all do some things online. Y' all do groups, y' all do in person groups. But talk just a little bit or point them to where people can learn more about how to continue walking in these truths.
[00:59:13] Speaker B: Yeah. To identityexchange.com is one of our websites.
We have courses of free stuff that you can do. A 21 day thing that you can do on hope, which is really beautiful. It's free. You can just. It's a daily thing you can do.
Identity Impact is our nonprofit that works in, that's doing a lot of work in public schools, which is really powerful and beautiful. All these things we're talking about in schools.
So either of those websites are great resources that people can check out.
[00:59:46] Speaker A: Jamie, thanks again. We'll have you back someday.
And audience, thank you for joining us. We'll be back next week with another great show.
[00:59:54] Speaker B: Bye.
